Author Topic: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch  (Read 125088 times)

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #420 on: December 26, 2018, 11:59:44 PM »
"According to Apollo documentation"? What's that supposed to mean?

That's an easy one.  He's trying to find the smallest thing to concede.  If he merely admits that no catastrophic failure to the SM RCS during boost was documented, then he can still believe his fantasy that he knows best, and that if the missions were real then NASA was either extremely reckless or extremely lucky or both.  If he acknowledges the real design principles, he has to overtly admit there was something he didn't know about and therefore didn't think of.  That's less desirable a position to be in than someone who believes he's outsmarted NASA no matter how cleverly they lied to him.

Quote
Maybe not, but let's make the analogy relevant. What would you do if a warning light came on each time you used an electrical system in your car when you were only a few miles from your Winnebago...

AGS can get the LM to an abort orbit with no yaw control available whatsoever.  In that scenario the CSM becomes the active vehicle for docking.  Not that Apollo 11 was anywhere even remotely close to that contingency.  Unless I miss my guest, the next post from Jr Knowing will be telling us how naive and gullible we are for not taking the 18-minute "RCS failure" as seriously as he does.

Quote
In any case, do the maths...

...which is what the engineers did when they validated the plume deflectors for flight.  Jr Knowing doesn't seem to know how to do any math at all, or recognize its value in design engineering.

Quote
Why add the word "somehow"?

Yup, he still thinks he knows best how to build spaceships.  He hasn't changed since Page 1 of this thread.  We have merely "reasonable" points, but he's the master.

Quote
Yeah, but do you accept that the reason no RCS cones were ripped off on liftoff is our understanding of a concept which also applies to ships and aircraft, and other rockets apart from the Saturn V? In other words, do you accept that this is a concept with general application in science and technology, rather than some obscure bit of engineering tricked up just for Apollo?

Good luck.  I've been trying for days to get him to admit that flow separation is a common physical principle he either didn't know about or failed to apply to his theory.  You will get only very carefully-worded concessions that admit no error, fault, or deficiency on his part.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline onebigmonkey

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1583
  • ALSJ Clown
    • Apollo Hoax Debunked
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #421 on: December 27, 2018, 02:15:39 AM »

Maybe not, but let's make the analogy relevant. What would you do if a warning light came on each time you used an electrical system in your car when you were only a few miles from your Winnebago, and if your car failed totally you could still phone your friend in the Winnebago to drive to you?


To take the analogy even further: Every time I drive my car the 'stop' warning lights come on. Occasionally the entire dash will light up telling me that the thing will explode if I don't pull over right now. I know from experience, testing and advice from mechanics I know and trust, that it is a false positive. When all the lights come on I know how to manage the engine so that they will go off again.

Offline onebigmonkey

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1583
  • ALSJ Clown
    • Apollo Hoax Debunked
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #422 on: December 27, 2018, 02:17:42 AM »
Man, you guys are a tough bunch.  :)

Yes, we are, which is why coming here playing games and trying to score points on a subject in which you are woefully ill-informed really won't work for you.

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1601
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #423 on: December 27, 2018, 04:46:01 AM »
Man, you guys are a tough bunch.  :)

Yes. But that's a natural requirement for the professions many of us are in.

Quote
Yes the CSM RCS's cones were not ripped off on liftoff according to Apollo documentation. My point was why would NASA risk this even if there was a slight chance of problems?

As has already been pointed out, you evidently know nothing of risk management. There is always a 'slight chance' of problems. The question is whether it warrants any action to further mitigate that chance. The SM RCS quads were not in any significant danger from the airflow over the vehicle during launch. That's physics. Not Apollo-specific. Actual, general, fluid physics.

Quote
It would not be the first time a rocket hasn't remained intact through launch.

Yes, failures happen, especially in development flights. That's expected.

Quote
And yes, according to Apollo documentation, there was not a complete absolute failure of an RCS engine. However, according to Apollo documentation, there were partial failures and a myriad of problems during the RCS development.

Yes, that's what happens in development. That's why we have development programs in the first place.

Quote
Even Apollo 11 had an 18 minute partial failure.

It had an intermittent failure over an 18 minute period of one component of the RCS system.

Quote
Again, using Jay's analogy, I for sure would not want to lose my steering for 18 minutes down a desolate, dark road.

You need to work on your analogies. How does the falure recorded during Apollo 11 equate in any way to 'losing the steering'? On Apollo 11 one component of one of four jets used to control one axis of rotation had an intermittent failure for a few minutes. So what?

Quote
And as for the deflectors, if you examine some of the early anomalies (such as certain engines running at sub par performance), it would raise certain concerns of the ability of the ship remaining stable through its mission with the addition of these (untested A11) deflectors.

No, it really wouldn't.

I'll ask again: how does the memo you provided support your claim that the LM in solo flght is rendered unstable by the deflectors? And where is the other, more detailed document you claim states the requirement for perfectly balanced conditions for the RCS to work, or did you think we'd forgotten that one?

Quote
And to be clear, documentation states the deflectors were somehow securely attached on the launchpad and not during Assembly/mating process.

No, not somehow. You've been shown the aparatus used for working on the vehicle post-stacking.

Quote
Added weight and changing the steering dynamics all literally last second

No, not last second. There was over two months between stacking and launch. And once again, please show us how your evidence supports your claim that steering dynamics of the LM in solo flight were significantly altered by the addition of plume defelctors, or at least altered such that instability was a real concern.

Again, here is the equation you brought to the table:

M+X = 89D1 - 59D2

The instability that leads to a positive feedback loop is only present when M+X is negative, as stated in the memo. You agree with that, yes? So given that, please show us any situation with the LM in solo flight where this can actually be the case.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1959
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #424 on: December 27, 2018, 05:06:48 AM »
Every time I'm about drive across a bridge or walk onto a boat or aeroplane I think about it in a similar way. Don't you?

Yes, I flew to Christchurch last week on a Bombardier Q300. When we boarded, I noticed there was a door open on the side, and there was a ladder thing we walked up through another open door. Also, there were metal struts sticking down from the engines with wheels on the end.

However, once we were in the air, I noticed that the doors were closed, and there was no sign of that ladder thing. Even more amazing, the struts with the wheels on the end? well, they were gone!!!?
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1959
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #425 on: December 27, 2018, 05:35:56 AM »
Man, you guys are a tough bunch.  :)

If you thought you were going to turn up here with something you thought you had found, and that everyone here was going to be amazed and go "Wow, that's amazing, we never thought of that" then you have come to the wrong forum - try Godlike Productions, Aulis or Above Top Secret for that sort of fawning sycophancy.

Unlike those forums which consist mostly of the ignorant and the stupid, and people who claim qualifications but have none, THIS forum actually has, among its members Physics and Mathematics Professors, Aerospace, Aeronautical, Electronics and Avionics Engineers, Photographers and at least one payload integration engineer, i.e. actual rocket scientists; that is people who actually work on real rockets or at the very least, work on some of the systems used in real rockets.

We're a tough bunch because we are very well versed and very experienced in our respective trades - an amateur is going to have to be very clever and very intelligent to slip one past us. We're also a tough bunch because most of us have seen it all before.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 05:37:47 AM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Dalhousie

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 614
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #426 on: December 27, 2018, 05:41:52 AM »
Man, you guys are a tough bunch.  :)

If you thought you were going to turn up here with something you thought you had found, and that everyone here was going to be amazed and go "Wow, that's amazing, we never thought of that" then you have come to the wrong forum - try Godlike Productions, Aulis or Above Top Secret for that sort of fawning sycophancy.

Unlike those forums which consist mostly of the ignorant and the stupid, and people who claim qualifications but have none, THIS forum actually has, among its members Physics and Mathematics Professors, Aerospace, Aeronautical, Electronics and Avionics Engineers, Photographers and at least one payload integration engineer, i.e. actual rocket scientists; that is people who actually work on real rockets or at the very least, work on some of the systems used in real rockets.

We're a tough bunch because we are very well versed and very experienced in our respective trades - an amateur is going to have to be very clever and very intelligent to slip one past us. We're also a tough bunch because most of us have seen it all before.

Don't forget geologists!

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #427 on: December 27, 2018, 11:29:58 AM »
Don't forget geologists!

Most definitely not, given that the lunar samples support the authenticity so clearly and so starkly. Without their work planning the scientific objectives of the missions and their research after, we would not have a fascinating record of science at our finger tips.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #428 on: December 27, 2018, 01:25:28 PM »
Yes. But that's a natural requirement for the professions many of us are in.

And if he wants to play in those fields and tell everyone else what they're doing wrong, he'd better agree to be held to those same standards.  The licensing exam for my profession is 13 hours long, and the result of licensure is that one becomes legally liable for the correctness of one's technical understanding.  This is the standard he must meet or exceed in order to suggest that professional engineers weren't doing it right (and therefore they must not have been doing it for real).

But on a more sinister note, pleas such as "Go easy on me!" and quips such as "You guys are tough!" are social-engineering ploys to defray meaningful criticism.  He's trying to set the stage for a drama in which we're all just good ol' boys sitting around, having a few beers, and talking about space.  In that scenario the conversation should be light and congenial, not confrontational.  You know, "Hey, lighten up, we're just chit-chatting."  Or the slightly more aggressive, "Wow, you guys take everything so seriously.  Don't you know how to have fun?"  He wants there to be a social penalty for rigor, but keep in mind this is the same person who's telling us all how gullible and inappropriately credulous we are not to believe him.  He only wants the social penalty when it's him who's being tested.

Quote
As has already been pointed out, you evidently know nothing of risk management. There is always a 'slight chance' of problems.

Or, "essential risk."  That is, it is never possible to drive risk to zero.  Always taking the straightforward action rather than endure "the slightest chance" of a problem is exactly what engineering is not.

Quote
The question is whether it warrants any action to further mitigate that chance.

"Warrants" here means a cost-benefit analysis, where incurred risk is part of the cost.  The doctrine of essential risk says that you reach a point where the risks incurred by the proposed solution are equal to, or greater, than the inherent remaining risk.  It's the well-known layman's adage, "That will just cause more problems than it solves."  Here there was simply no problem to solve.  The jets were not in the slipstream; they were in the flow separation zone.

Quote
It had an intermittent failure over an 18 minute period of one component of the RCS system.

And not even an essential component.  Many cars today have open-circuit detection that can help the driver know he has a tail light out.  If the open-circuit detector itself fails, that doesn't mean the tail light has failed.  It just means that if you want to know if your tail light is out, you have to do it the old fashioned way.  Oh, and by the way, in this analogy the open-circuit detector fails only when your brakes are doing the anti-lock thing.  It works fine if you just put your foot on the pedal.  What the crew lost intermittently for up to 18 minutes was the ability to detect a jet failed-on or failed-off condition via the electronics, for one redundant jet, while in one RCS operation mode.  If the jet had failed off undetectably while the detector was misbehaving, yaw control would simply have produced a slightly smaller rotation rate.  (And the RCS was in minimum-impulse mode here for a reason; four jets turning the ascent stage alone is far too high a control rate for the situation.  Ed Mitchell called it "sporty.")  If the jet had failed on undetectably, it wouldn't have been undetectable.  A noticeable yaw rate would have ensued.

That's really how minor this was.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline mako88sb

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 293
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #429 on: December 27, 2018, 01:35:49 PM »

Again, I am not looking to argue. I have agreed that, according to NASA, no RCS cones were ripped off on liftoff, and there were no complete RCS failures. And it is plausible, albeit questionable (in my mind), that LM's (untested) makeover could have occurred on the launchpad.

You might not be aware of this but the preface of Roger Bilstein's book "Stages to Saturn: A Technological History of the Apollo/Saturn Launch V" mentions that the program officials for the development of the Saturn family of rockets fully expected a 50% launch failure rate for the Saturn 1. Actual failure rate was zero. The book doesn't mention what they expected for a launch failure rate for the Saturn 1B or Saturn V, maybe somebody here knows that info, regardless it was the same with 100% launches being successful. Obviously there were issues with some post-launch missions such as Apollo 6 but to achieve 32 successful launches out of 32 attempts with some of the most complex machines built at that time says a lot in, my opinion, of the high standards that were met and exceeded by all the personnel involved. Especially when you have a look at the launch failure rate for USA rockets before the Saturn program which were much smaller and far less complex, and that if I recall correctly the failure rate was as high as 40% with some designs. All one has to do is look at the Soviet's N1 and how they had 4 out of 4 launch failures before their moon landing program was cancelled. Don't you think that maybe, just maybe these folks were competent enough to design RCS & Plume deflectors that would work properly and safely enough to the same standards as those 32 Saturn rockets?

 

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #430 on: December 27, 2018, 02:59:11 PM »
Or the slightly more aggressive, "Wow, you guys take everything so seriously.  Don't you know how to have fun?"

This will almost inevitably be followed by "how dare the astronauts have joked around and shot golf balls and so forth on the Moon!  That was serious."
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline raven

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #431 on: December 27, 2018, 03:21:15 PM »
Or the slightly more aggressive, "Wow, you guys take everything so seriously.  Don't you know how to have fun?"

This will almost inevitably be followed by "how dare the astronauts have joked around and shot golf balls and so forth on the Moon!  That was serious."
Another one is 'everything went so flawlessly, how was that possible?' and 'How could they be so reckless with so many problems with the vehicles?' Actually, don't we have a whole stickied thread of conspiracy theorist contradictions?
Anyway, unlike many of the fine people, I am not an engineer or scientist. I do not claim to have any particular skill with math; if anything its below average, but I can still research as well as I can and ask questions from people who do this stuff for a living. I can also point out when hoax proponents make outright lies in their claims. I have learned so much on this forum, and I can say the fine people of this forum are polite and articulate. They only get snarky when some hot stuff pulls out the well (well!) trodden claims and try to pretend they have found something  earth shattering.
Here's a question I'd like answered by  jr Knowing: What is even the point of faking it? If you pull it off, it's a major propaganda coup, but the USSR would have been the very hardest to fool, as they had their own failed moon landing program and an extensive and very successful unmanned lunar exploration program. It's basically the first rule of any successful scammer: know your mark.  If the US realized they couldn't pull it off, why not focus on other things, like the USSR did with space stations and Venusian exploration after the explosive failure of the N1 rocket. If the USSR realized the moon landings were fake, which, from their knowledge they would most certainly have, they would have every motivation to trumpet it to the world as their own propaganda coup.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #432 on: December 27, 2018, 06:00:35 PM »
And once again, please show us how your evidence supports your claim that steering dynamics of the LM in solo flight were significantly altered by the addition of plume defelctors, or at least altered such that instability was a real concern.

Again, here is the equation you brought to the table:

M+X = 89D1 - 59D2

The instability that leads to a positive feedback loop is only present when M+X is negative, as stated in the memo. You agree with that, yes?

I don't think he does.  Which is to say I don't get the impression he thinks one can compute stability, or that it makes sense to do so.  I don't think he considers free-body dynamics to be a computable regime.  This is something I run into all the time with hoax claimants trying to bluff their way through specialized knowledge.  They usually don't know what's possible.  Their extrapolation from intuition usually goes down the wrong path.  Here it seems Jr Knowing has only a pidgin, cargo-cult understanding of stability.  "Stability" is the binary condition that arises from pairs of jets placed exactly in opposition, acting exactly through the center of gravity (which can never vary).  "Instability" is the binary condition that happens when any of these "constraints" is violated.

And in his version, one can never know whether one has achieved stability except by demonstration flight.  The problem is solvable practically, but not prescriptively.  This is why we keep pushing the math under his nose and he just keeps trying to figure out how it applies.  It hasn't sunk in that there is a formalized model for this, and that math solves the problem in the abstract, not just individual cases.  He hasn't figured out that engineers can know there will be no stability problem (or, as in the memo, that a certain curious condition will arise in remote circumstances) by working it out on paper.  He doesn't see how math solves what he thinks is a purely practical problem.  The plume deflectors weren't flight-tested, so in his limited pseudo-engineering world they were untried.

We generalize the problem of free-body dynamics for most practical purposes using what's called a linearized state-space model.  It's "linearized" in the sense that all the familiar Newtonian elements of the problem are represented as entities in linear algebra -- matrices and vectors.  More accurately, many elements of the problem are matrix- or vector-valued functions of some other variable such as time.  It's a "state space" in that it's a vector space of all possible inputs, outputs, and states (and their derivatives) that a system can be in, as represented in linear algebra terms.  Ironically, the state-space class of mathematical solutions is also used in econometrics.

The beauty of such a system is that all possible effects are correctly modeled using a homogeneous (and small) vocabulary.  You can abstract concepts like body axes and control axes -- and in the LM's case the control axes don't even have to be orthogonal (at right angles).  Everything boils down to multiplying vectors and matrices.  That's what linear algebra is for.  A layman is probably not going to stumble onto this by himself.  He was either taught it and thereby understands its power and simplicity, or else his concept of the quantitative nature of the problem is likely to be a bewildering melange of special-case formulations that would quickly become intractable for such a problem as controlling a spacecraft.  In this system, the center of mass not being at the center of the control axes isn't a problem, because it's never assumed to be.  Transforming between body axes and control axes is straightforward and never omitted.  There are no special cases to consider.  And the transformation can even be a time-parameterized function (or a function of some other variable such as fuel-on-board) with no loss of elegance.

With these techniques, the additional effect of plume impingement on the deflector simply becomes another vector in the problem, no different than the direct effect of the jet itself.  It has discoverable, deducible physical properties, and these properties can be modeled easily in the language of linearized state spaces.  The equation above is merely a matrix multiplication rendered out in its scalar decomposition.  The fact that it also works out to be the definition of toque (a quantity of force acting a distance from the center of mass) is intentional.  Torque is not some contrived concept.  It's a mathematical expression of how we observe the universe to work.  The algebraic equivalence between the basic expression of the concept and the model we use validates the model.

Apparently unaware of this, Jr not-Knowing figures that the engineers who came up with the plume deflector had no way to determine its effect on the control problem before flight.  And in his world of perfectly-balanced jets and perfectly-located centers of mass and idealized structure, any disruption is disastrous.  And if we can't see this, then we're just not at his level of understanding.  (Well, that's true.  But not in the way he wants.)  The central theorem of state-space dynamics is not that a system rests at equilibrium or returns to it unaided, but rather than a system can be driven to a desired state deterministically.  The whole science of control theory would be obviated entirely if everything worked the way Jr Knowing imagined it does.

And that same misconception is behind the bravado with which he insinuates that we can't know that we're right and that he's wrong.  Yes!  Yes, we can!  The same math by which the engineers originally determined the effect of the plume deflectors and predicted its feedback loop in extraordinary circumstances works just as well for us in determining that no possible location of the LM's center of mass in solo flight reverses the relevant moment.  No, we aren't just gullible or brainwashed.  I know what I know.  I know why I know it.  I know that it works because I see it work.  It's not just a thing I read, or a thing someone told me.  And I'm not alone.  These are common techniques, widely known and broadly applicable.  Jr's ignorance of them doesn't make them invalid, doesn't make them go away, and doesn't make him the insightful genius he hopes to play.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1274
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #433 on: December 27, 2018, 07:40:21 PM »
Anyway, unlike many of the fine people, I am not an engineer or scientist. I do not claim to have any particular skill with math; if anything its below average, but I can still research as well as I can and ask questions from people who do this stuff for a living. I can also point out when hoax proponents make outright lies in their claims. I have learned so much on this forum, and I can say the fine people of this forum are polite and articulate. They only get snarky when some hot stuff pulls out the well (well!) trodden claims and try to pretend they have found something  earth shattering.

I'd put myself in the same category as Raven. I'm also not an engineer or scientist, but I did enough maths and science at school that I can understand most of the maths discussed here and can follow the rest even if I can't do the maths myself.

I've also been investigating hoax claims for about 20 years, so I'm also wearily familiar with plenty of claims that visitors here think they're the first to bring to our attention.

Having said that, there are still plenty of cases where I learn something new. But in almost every case, it's learning something new about the reality of Apollo, and only occasionally a new hoax claim I haven't heard before.

Quote
Here's a question I'd like answered by  jr Knowing: What is even the point of faking it? If you pull it off, it's a major propaganda coup, but the USSR would have been the very hardest to fool, as they had their own failed moon landing program and an extensive and very successful unmanned lunar exploration program. It's basically the first rule of any successful scammer: know your mark.  If the US realized they couldn't pull it off, why not focus on other things, like the USSR did with space stations and Venusian exploration after the explosive failure of the N1 rocket. If the USSR realized the moon landings were fake, which, from their knowledge they would most certainly have, they would have every motivation to trumpet it to the world as their own propaganda coup.

Yes, something important to understand here - the Russians/Soviets were the masters of fakery and misdirection. In the case of their military forces, the term was maskirovka, but they applied the concept broadly, including in their space program. This was because they recognised both the propaganda value of the space program and the ease with which they could exploit it.

Therefore, the Russians never announced their launches ahead of time. This allowed them to cover up their launch failures, giving them the appearance of a 100% launch success rate when the American failures were there for all to see.

It worked in other ways too: they might make a bland statement about a mission objective, and let the Western media draw whatever excessive implications they wished; so when they announced that Vostoks 3 and 4 would approach to within a few kilometres of each other, Western media assumed the Soviets had worked out how to do a rendezvous in space, which they hadn't...but it played into the image of the Soviet lead in the Space Race.

But almost the biggest success of the Soviet space program was convincing people in the West that they hadn't been racing the Americans throughout the 1960s to get men on the Moon. They successfully pushed the line that all they'd ever been interested in was unmanned exploration of the Moon because it was cheaper and safer. Sure, it was cheaper and safer, but they had certainly been racing the Americans to put actual people on the Moon, and only really gave up when they couldn't make their N1 rocket work.

Now NASA knew most of this, and some of their knowledge of what the Soviets were actually up to influenced some of their decisions. For example, knowing the Soviets had a very large rocket on a launch pad played a part in convincing them to send Apollo 8 to the Moon in December 1968.

But the fact that NASA could see at least part way through the Soviet deceptions also meant they'd have had a good idea that they'd have no hope of getting away with a fake themselves. And in the propaganda context of the Cold War, being caught faking something would be worse than not attempting it at all (which is why the Soviets exploited the propaganda value of what they did, rather than faking anything themselves). (Apart from which, the Americans were quite confident they could go to the Moon.)

So the only options with regard to sending men to the Moon was either (a) don't attempt it (the Soviet decision), or (b) actually do it (the American decision). Option (c), faking it, simply wasn't a viable option.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1959
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #434 on: December 27, 2018, 09:08:41 PM »
Man, you guys are a tough bunch.  :)

If you thought you were going to turn up here with something you thought you had found, and that everyone here was going to be amazed and go "Wow, that's amazing, we never thought of that" then you have come to the wrong forum - try Godlike Productions, Aulis or Above Top Secret for that sort of fawning sycophancy.

Unlike those forums which consist mostly of the ignorant and the stupid, and people who claim qualifications but have none, THIS forum actually has, among its members Physics and Mathematics Professors, Aerospace, Aeronautical, Electronics and Avionics Engineers, Photographers and at least one payload integration engineer, i.e. actual rocket scientists; that is people who actually work on real rockets or at the very least, work on some of the systems used in real rockets.

We're a tough bunch because we are very well versed and very experienced in our respective trades - an amateur is going to have to be very clever and very intelligent to slip one past us. We're also a tough bunch because most of us have seen it all before.

Don't forget geologists!

My most humble apologies. I wasn't aware that we had geologists among our numbers.

And yes, I agree with the later posts: Of all the physical evidence that the Apollo Programme was real, the samples of lunar rocks they brought back is absolute, irrefutable proof positive that at the very least, those rocks cannot have come from the Earth. Lunar rocks and soils show evidence of formation in an environment that was extremely dry, had low gravity and very little oxygen. There is no way that rocks could be formed on Earth in such an environment.

I sometimes hear the spurious argument that NASA could have just sent sample return missions to retrieve such rocks. Well, the Soviets did that: in three sample/return missions (Luna 16, 20 and 24) they were able to bring back a grand total of 300 grammes of lunar material. The most productive of these was Luna 24 which brought back 170 grammes.

The Apollo missions brought back 382 KILOgrammes of lunar material. In order for NASA to have brought that back in sample/return missions of the same efficiency as the best Soviet effort; Luna 24, they would have needed to make about  2250 sample/return missions; to do it between July 1969 and December 1972 (the period of time over which the Apollo programme landed men on the moon), they would have to be secretly launching two lunar launches per day. 
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.