Author Topic: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?  (Read 420506 times)

Offline Bob B.

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #960 on: February 07, 2013, 10:14:35 AM »
Huh? The Prof bailed already? Wuss.

If we're dealing with yet another sock puppet, he'll be back.  That's what trolls do.

Offline cos

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #961 on: February 07, 2013, 10:49:53 AM »
A question for the prof;
Have you watched an entire eva, from any mission? If not, why not?
You expect us to wade through jarrah's garbage and you are, I'd suspect, completely ignorant of the source material.
I recommend you sit through an eva from one of the J missions. No sane person could sit through 5 or 6 hours of exploring the lunar surface and think it was done in a studio or anywhere but the moon. Not one hb can say how to shoot multi hour continuous footage with a demonstratable vacuuum and 1/6th earth g.
Throw in 360degree pans, reflective visors without a sign of a film crew or light source other than the sun. And if you care to frame grab, all earth images match the weather satellite data at the time that is was broadcast live.
So go and do YOUR homework before making ridiculous claims.

Offline RAF

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #962 on: February 07, 2013, 11:07:40 AM »
If we're dealing with yet another sock puppet, he'll be back.  That's what trolls do.

Perhaps he is establishing a half dozen different personas, so that they might agree with each other...giving the illusion that his ideas are valid.

Perhaps I shouldn't be giving him any ideas. :)

Of course it wouldn't fool anyone, but neither has anything he has posted so far.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 11:09:20 AM by RAF »

Offline Noldi400

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #963 on: February 07, 2013, 11:48:06 AM »
Considering how difficult it would have been to fake the TV sequences, then, had Apollo been a hoax, I believe there wouldn't have been any TV.  It would have been easy just to say that transmitting TV from the moon was beyond our capability at that time, and no one would have questioned it.  The whole problem goes away.

That's (part of) a point I've tried to make to HBs before: IF TPTB had set out to fake a lunar mission, I think they would have taken every opportunity to 'simplify the lie'.  No TV - technical issues with trying to broadcast a TV signal from deep space; no photographs - the heat and radiation on the moon prevent it (well, maybe a few fogged, poorly focused shots); certainly not seven missions - maybe two or three; voice communication would be intermittent and of poor quality; and so on. Other possibilities are left as an exercise for the student.  (Someone more devious than me will have to address the issue of sample collection.

BTW, I have a question ("Just Asking Questions"TM) that someone here should be able to answer:

We've often heard that the skin of the LM was very thin in spots; the usual description is 'a couple of layers of aluminum foil', which would be .05 mm or so.  I understand that that was enough to hold pressure, and that structural strength came from ribs, and that weight was a huge consideration, but was there any kind of a safety concern with a hull this thin?  It seems that it wouldn't have taken much of a bump to poke a hole. Did the skin have some other cover or protection on the inside? (I know the outside had thermal protection covering it.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Bob B.

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #964 on: February 07, 2013, 12:00:20 PM »
That's (part of) a point I've tried to make to HBs before: IF TPTB had set out to fake a lunar mission, I think they would have taken every opportunity to 'simplify the lie'.  No TV - technical issues with trying to broadcast a TV signal from deep space; no photographs - the heat and radiation on the moon prevent it (well, maybe a few fogged, poorly focused shots); certainly not seven missions - maybe two or three; voice communication would be intermittent and of poor quality; and so on. Other possibilities are left as an exercise for the student.  (Someone more devious than me will have to address the issue of sample collection.

I agree completely.  I've said in the past that it might have been possible to fake a moon landing(s) but not the moon landing(s).  In other words, a fake would have looked much different than the landings we know from history.

Offline Tedward

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #965 on: February 07, 2013, 12:06:21 PM »
Someone else on here posted this up some time ago.

http://www.ehartwell.com/LM/SCATPictures.htm

Edit. too slow, this was for Noldi400 question above. Not a complete answer but very interesting.

Offline raven

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #966 on: February 07, 2013, 12:17:33 PM »
Someone else on here posted this up some time ago.

http://www.ehartwell.com/LM/SCATPictures.htm

Edit. too slow, this was for Noldi400 question above. Not a complete answer but very interesting.
I didn't know Grumman did contract work for the Empire.  ;D

Offline Noldi400

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #967 on: February 07, 2013, 12:17:43 PM »
Someone else on here posted this up some time ago.

http://www.ehartwell.com/LM/SCATPictures.htm

Edit. too slow, this was for Noldi400 question above. Not a complete answer but very interesting.

Thanks, interesting site. Maybe I need to dig up that Moon Machines episode and watch it again.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Noldi400

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #968 on: February 07, 2013, 12:22:50 PM »
That's (part of) a point I've tried to make to HBs before: IF TPTB had set out to fake a lunar mission, I think they would have taken every opportunity to 'simplify the lie'.  No TV - technical issues with trying to broadcast a TV signal from deep space; no photographs - the heat and radiation on the moon prevent it (well, maybe a few fogged, poorly focused shots); certainly not seven missions - maybe two or three; voice communication would be intermittent and of poor quality; and so on. Other possibilities are left as an exercise for the student.  (Someone more devious than me will have to address the issue of sample collection.

I agree completely.  I've said in the past that it might have been possible to fake a moon landing(s) but not the moon landing(s).  In other words, a fake would have looked much different than the landings we know from history.

Yep. I've also said that if they had just done the one mission (AS11) and stopped, then maybe - MAYBE - I could be induced to have some doubts.  But as the missions got more ambitious and the coverage got better, well, such a mountain of evidence piled up that it seems impossible to me to harbor any doubts at all.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline gillianren

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #969 on: February 07, 2013, 12:52:30 PM »
And thanks to Ron Howard and Tom Hanks, HBs no longer have the option of thinking Apollo 11 was the only mission.  Yeah, we know that Apollo 13 didn't land, but do they just ignore that it means there must have been an Apollo 12 that did?
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

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Offline raven

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #970 on: February 07, 2013, 01:01:25 PM »
And thanks to Ron Howard and Tom Hanks, HBs no longer have the option of thinking Apollo 11 was the only mission.  Yeah, we know that Apollo 13 didn't land, but do they just ignore that it means there must have been an Apollo 12 that did?
Even better, Apollo 12 also would have fulfilled Kennedy promise. If something wasn't ready for Apollo 11, after the manned Earth orbit tests of Apollo 7 and 9, or the lunar  tests of Apollo 8 and 10, why not delay the landing until Apollo 12? Why even try faking things?

Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #971 on: February 07, 2013, 01:12:02 PM »
Arguments that they slowed down the film/video to simulate diminished gravity simply don't hold up in any way.  It doesn't hold up when David Percy makes it.  It doesn't hold up when Bart Sibrel makes it.  It doesn't hold up when Jarrah White makes it.  Just because someone else copies an old claim and presents it again doesn't mean it suddenly becomes undebunked.  Yes, Jarrah is the latest to make the same claim, but it doesn't change the absurdity of the argument itself.  If you want to argue that he somehow got it right where everyone else failed, then I'll point to Jarrah's manifest ignorance of most of the sciences and mathematics pertaining to space and engineering -- he even has problems with simple arithmetic.  So no, it's not likely that he somehow got it right.

As has been pointed out, only one precise ratio yields a frame rate in which gravity is seen to behave correctly for the lunar environment.  Very few of the hoax proposals (and none of them mentioned here lately) name that frame rate.  That means Jarrah is wrong -- a 33% reduction in earthbound frame rate cannot produce authentic gravity falls for the lunar environment.  It means Percy is also wrong -- 50% is the wrong ratio too.

But the argument is even more wrong-headed than that.  "Speed the lunar footage up by ____% and it looks normal," is a begged question for all values you put in that blank.  The claimant is asking you simply to agree with his core proposition.  The application of some digital or video tool to alter the frame rate gives the illusion of rigor, but the only determination that matters depends entirely on a subjective impression.  And we've see how that impression is manipulated to seem convincing:  omitting rigorous measurements, shortening and cherry-picking the clips.  "Looks normal" simply begs the question, and it doesn't matter how you arrived at your "magic" frame rate ratio.

But wait, before you answer, you also get a hefty dose of affirmed consequent.  If you have some observation A, and you apply some transformation T(A) on it to produce A', and you argue that A' is equivalent to B, then this does not prove that all observations of B must be transformed As.  That's the dry logical formulation of it.  Concretely expressed, if you say you can take Earth footage and apply some sort of transformation to it and make it indistinguishable from authentic Moon footage, that doesn't prove there can't be any authentic Moon footage, nor that any example of purported Moon footage must necessarily be transformed Earth footage.  That's the essence of the affirmed consequent and why it can't be used to prove anything.

Now granted hoax believers use this to rebut the claim that the Moon footage cannot have been faked on Earth, which is a claim debunkers often make.  It is likely a true claim, but it doesn't have to be true.  The hoax claimants say the Moon footage was faked.  The converse of that is that it was not faked, and an easy way to argue that is to show that it cannot have been faked.  "Cannot" is the ultimately strong form of "was not," but the null hypothesis is merely "was not faked," which is why the burden of proof must be on "was faked."  When we strengthen the null hypothesis, we lower the bar for the hoax believers -- they think all they have to do is prove it wasn't impossible, and they've proven that it happened that way.

So to sum up we have one deductive failure (the habitually wrong ratio), and two inferential errors (begging the question and affirming the consequent).  Those individually and collectively doom the argument, no matter whose YouTube video they appear in.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Sus_pilot

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why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #972 on: February 07, 2013, 01:43:21 PM »
The job just got a whole lot impossible.

I didn't realize there were varying degrees of "impossible".  Is there such a thing as a little impossible? ;)

Kinda like being kinda pregnant...

Offline Echnaton

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #973 on: February 07, 2013, 02:27:37 PM »
OK, I should not have used that little word or two before.

Probably should have said "a lot harder" anyway rather than impossible. :)
No way!  "A whole lot impossible" is more better. Perfectly cromulent. 
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #974 on: February 07, 2013, 02:49:33 PM »
My way is impossibler than yours.  And cromulenter.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams