Author Topic: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?  (Read 280002 times)

Offline Zakalwe

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1590
Re: Were the rovers ever designed for one astronaut?
« Reply #330 on: March 27, 2013, 05:18:12 AM »
If they were done I would have expected to have run across them by now, and I would expect any such findings to be in the operations handbook along with speed recommendations and CoG calculations etc.

Have you ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong? Why would these calculation be in the operations handbook? To use an analogy that you are fond of, when you read you car's handbook does it contain the calculations on roll-over angles????
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline geo7863

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #331 on: March 27, 2013, 06:04:37 AM »
Anywho, I bet these chaps are glad they don't share your wisdom and expertise on vehicular CoG parameters and roll stability!

Offline ChrLz

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #332 on: March 27, 2013, 06:22:54 AM »
Anywho, may I point out several blindingly obvious points?

You have not one single supporter.  Hey, why not go talk to a REAL CREDENTIALLED engineer of your choice, one with some verifiable background in this field, and get them to log in here and weigh in with the analysis YOU won't provide..?  Or isn't it that important to you?


You are studiously and obviously avoidng the question asked of you MANY TIMES.  I think it's high time you were pulled up and REQUIRED to answer:

1.  What is being shown in the lengthy films of the LRV?  What is the vehicle and where/how was it filmed?



You are also studiously avoiding posting a REAL analysis of the LRV, one that includes the proper (and relatively simple) approaches to determine the REAL factors that are relevant to your (spurious and false) claims.  You have been shown the sources and given the basic information - spoonfed, in fact.  So why are you refusing to do that?

2. Provide that analysis and show your workings and logic.


No more ridiculously inapplicable (indeed, laughable) analogies.  Get to work and stop the handwaving.


And yes, we all know....

Offline Sus_pilot

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 337
Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #333 on: March 27, 2013, 08:14:17 AM »
I haven't done any CG calculations at all, let alone roll over calculations, but, if we're going to go on intuition alone, looking at the wheelbase of the LRV, especially in the photo in the "Mystery Watch" thread, the vehicle just looks very stable and fairly difficult to roll.

Anywho, ponder this:  picture a vehicle that weighs 90 tons loaded, is about 19 feet tall, 11 feet wide, and rides on a wheelbase of 56.5 inches.  Can't be done because the CG is too high, right?

Can anyone figure out what I just described?  :)

Offline Tedward

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 338
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #334 on: March 27, 2013, 09:23:35 AM »
Yeah but they use glue like the stuff on post it notes.

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1274
Re: Were the rovers ever designed for one astronaut?
« Reply #335 on: March 27, 2013, 10:13:15 AM »
Abaddon said:
Quote
Oh, hello.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=47147.0

Anywho said:
Quote
Lock in "a" Eddie.

You started a thread on this topic on the (Australian) ABC Science Forum too, didn't you?
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3790
    • Clavius
Re: Were the rovers ever designed for one astronaut?
« Reply #336 on: March 27, 2013, 10:21:30 AM »
To everyone who questions that the CoG with one astronaut moves outside of the acceptable envelope I would seriously question why you are being so difficult...

Because engineering requires such rigor.  If you are unable to meet that rigor, you do not get to question the work of practicing engineers.  The better question is why you're being so haphazard and lackadaisical.  You're simply begging the question over and over again.

Quote
I would suggest even someone innumerate would, upon understanding the astronaut weight is similar to the rover, put the CoG somewhere under the astronauts right buttock.

Why would you submit in evidence what you suppose an innumerate person would do?

Quote
I used a simple formula for seesaws...

Wrong method.  Use the proper method.  You don't get to dumb down the problem until it fits your limited understanding -- not if your goal is to tell professionals on that basis that they are liars and frauds.

Quote
I am being genuine and not trying to bend things in my favour.

You're making it up as you go and trying to pretend this allows you to challenge the work and belief of the entire engineering community.

Quote
If they were done I would have expected to have run across them by now, and I would expect any such findings to be in the operations handbook along with speed recommendations and CoG calculations etc.

Straw man.  They weren't in the one place you looked, so rather than conduct an appropriate study you decide that everyone else should have done it your way and if they didn't then they're hiding something.

Quote
Well the question I was asking was whether the LRV's were ever designed for one astronaut, so there should be no need to see if it could be done while on the moon, they should know before they get there, and should have appropriate guidelines.

No, that's not how testing philosophy works in real life engineering.  Some things you can only learn through operational test, and you can't have those until you have at least an early working model of the vehicle and you test it in its destined environment.  Every airplane has a test flight.  Every ship or submarine has sea trials.  These occur in environments that become immediately hostile to the human occupant if something goes wrong.

The LRVs were extensively tested and studied.  You have only scratched the surface of the design, development, and testing efforts behind it, and are patently unschooled in the methods underlying such an effort.  Yet you have arrogantly drawn the conclusion that they must be implausible and further impose arrogantly imagined rules for proper practice and conduct upon the industry that developed them.

Quote
Ostensibly, it is looking as though the rovers were never designed for one astronaut, and one astronaut takes the rover outside it's design parameters.

No, you decided all that before you ever entered this forum, because you drew the same conclusions elsewhere.  You came here presenting the same conclusions with the same handwaving rationale, even after you were shot down previously.  You're shopping around for approval for your beliefs and praise for your cleverness, not actually investigating an engineering design.

Quote
You are essentially saying the grand prix were testing limits, yet they went well outside the recommended CoG and well outside the speed limits, on the moon where any failure could be disastrous...

I already addressed the c.g. "limits" and you have failed to respond.

They did not exceed speed limits in the Grand Prix.  If you had read the astronauts' report of the experience you would have known that.  You clearly have not studied the LRV well enough to make the outrageous claims you're making with any sort of objective confidence.

"Any failure would be disastrous" is hyperbole.  Layman conspiracy theorists typically hype up such imagined dangers in order to invent new rules to impose on NASA, so that they can accuse NASA of breaking them suspiciously.  You do not get to decide for everyone what is an acceptable risk.

Quote
...and in vehicles with low tolerances.

You only suppose the vehicle has low tolerances.  You are unwilling and unable to prove anything of the sort.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3790
    • Clavius
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #337 on: March 27, 2013, 10:23:16 AM »
Can anyone figure out what I just described?  :)

Some piece of railroading rolling stock, I'm sure.  And I'm equally sure you'd take the same sort of exception to a non-railroader who claimed railroad operations were unacceptably hazardous because they didn't conform to that person's misguided, simplistic conceptions of vehicle dynamics.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline anywho

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • BANNED
Re: Were the rovers ever designed for one astronaut?
« Reply #338 on: March 27, 2013, 10:55:51 AM »
Abaddon said:
Quote
Oh, hello.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=47147.0

Anywho said:
Quote
Lock in "a" Eddie.

You started a thread on this topic on the (Australian) ABC Science Forum too, didn't you?

Yep, I noted both in the opening post, and I posted a link to the naked scientist thread in my second post

Hi, I posted an argument on a science forum that the apollo rovers are nonsensical for driving on the moon, it is derived from another posting of mine on a different science forum that has already been posted on this site (I was just going to bump that thread but because the original link does not work, and a message came up asking me to consider making a new thread, I have started this thread)


Sorry, I forgot the link to the original posting:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=47147.0



JayUtah, are you seriously saying that one astronaut does not move the CoG outside of the designated envelope?


They did not exceed speed limits in the Grand Prix.  If you had read the astronauts' report of the experience you would have known that.  You clearly have not studied the LRV well enough to make the outrageous claims you're making with any sort of objective confidence.


I gave a reference saying they went 10kph and a reference that the speed limit over rough mare is 8.5kph, and the 8.5kph is the speed limit over rough terrain when the vehicles CoG is within the designated envelope, which it is not with only one astronaut.

So I gave my reasons for saying that they were over the speed limit, and references, yet you just ignore them and simply say "They did not exceed speed limits in the Grand Prix." and then babble on about reading the report without any specifics as to what you're alluding to.

Edit: to change a misspelt name, genuine mistake :-[

« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 11:30:19 AM by anywho »

Offline Allan F

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #339 on: March 27, 2013, 11:12:55 AM »
The drawing a few pages back references specifically to the acceptable CoG for a LRV with TWO astronauts. What is the acceptable CoG for a LRV with ONE astronaut?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3790
    • Clavius
Re: Were the rovers ever designed for one astronaut?
« Reply #340 on: March 27, 2013, 11:15:27 AM »
[derogatory name], are you seriously saying that one astronaut does not move the CoG outside of the designated envelope?

Do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

You are the one claiming the LRV was not designed for one-occupant operation.  Design intent aside, you further claim the LRV cannot be operated with one occupant because you allege it would have unacceptable roll stability.  In support of this claim you offer two lines of reasoning:  first, the supposition that an uninformed layman would intuitively assume the c.g. were in a particular place; and second, that your computation by an incorrect ad hoc method places the c.g. in a different particular place.

You present no accompanying roll stability computations.  You present no definition or rationale for the acceptability of performance.  You demonstrate no competence in the notion of "designated envelope."

We get nothing from you but repeated question-begging and handwaving.  Either supply suitable rigor or concede.

Quote
...babble on about reading the report without any specifics as to what you're alluding to.

The astronauts' debriefing.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline RAF

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 321
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #341 on: March 27, 2013, 11:32:12 AM »
So I gave my reasons for saying that they were over the speed limit, and references, yet you just ignore them...

Yeah, that's right...Jay "runs away" when confrounted with ignorant hoax believers...NOT.

Sheesh.






Offline anywho

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • BANNED
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #342 on: March 27, 2013, 11:41:45 AM »
The drawing a few pages back references specifically to the acceptable CoG for a LRV with TWO astronauts. What is the acceptable CoG for a LRV with ONE astronaut?

Good question, I am yet to come across any such workings, and the two person CoG is the only envelope they designate that I can find.

This is why I posed the question as to whether the rovers were ever actually designed for one astronaut.


Quote
...babble on about reading the report without any specifics as to what you're alluding to.

The astronauts' debriefing.

What in the debriefing refutes the two valid links I supplied? One which is the speed limit set at 8.5kph over rough mare, and one which says they went 10kph over what is obviously rough mare (and with one astronaut so the CoG is outside the acceptable envelope)

Offline Allan F

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #343 on: March 27, 2013, 11:57:04 AM »
The drawing a few pages back references specifically to the acceptable CoG for a LRV with TWO astronauts. What is the acceptable CoG for a LRV with ONE astronaut?

Good question, I am yet to come across any such workings, and the two person CoG is the only envelope they designate that I can find.

This is why I posed the question as to whether the rovers were ever actually designed for one astronaut.


Quote
...babble on about reading the report without any specifics as to what you're alluding to.

The astronauts' debriefing.

What in the debriefing refutes the two valid links I supplied? One which is the speed limit set at 8.5kph over rough mare, and one which says they went 10kph over what is obviously rough mare (and with one astronaut so the CoG is outside the acceptable envelope)

You just admitted not knowing what the acceptable envelope for CoG with one astronaut was - and now you know it?
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Noldi400

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 627
Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #344 on: March 27, 2013, 12:55:28 PM »
The drawing a few pages back references specifically to the acceptable CoG for a LRV with TWO astronauts. What is the acceptable CoG for a LRV with ONE astronaut?

Good question, I am yet to come across any such workings, and the two person CoG is the only envelope they designate that I can find.

This is why I posed the question as to whether the rovers were ever actually designed for one astronaut.

Well, it appears to me that the document you referenced (NASA-TX-X-66816, the LRV Performance Data Appendix) pretty much answers all the questions you've posed.

Specifically, they evaluated the stability of the LRV when occupied by one astronaut:



And they evaluated what happens when the CoG is outside the normal position:



They even evaluated your question about sliding-sideways-and-hitting-a-rock:



Isn't that amazing? The engineers who built this particular spacecraft actually considered all these questions you bring up. And, I dare say, a few thousand that you haven't thought of.  Then, being engineers rather than scientists, they evaluated everything they could about the real-world performance of the LRV - including its performance in the "Grand Prix" exercise - in order to refine their data.

Quote
...10kph over what is obviously rough mare...

I don't know that I agree that the terrain was "rough mare".  On Apollo 15, at least, they looked for the flattest stretch they could find for the run and Young avoided the larger craters.


"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz