ApolloHoax.net

Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chief on March 02, 2016, 09:38:13 PM

Title: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Chief on March 02, 2016, 09:38:13 PM
Over the last few weeks I have been responding on facebook (don’t judge!) to an old friend I reconnected with via my brother. Now, my brother has been a conspiracy believer for a long time and knows my position very clearly and with good humour we banter amongst ourselves often.

This old friend is a different matter however and debating with him left me lost for words, something that rarely happens to me. It started with a post he put up about vegan alternatives to bacon. As bacon is the only thing that could ever be accepted as possible proof of a wise and loving creator if there was such a thing, I made a quip about leaving bacon alone. Well I would just like to state to all the bacon lovers out there that we are responsible for death and war and Amazon deforestation, global warming and the eventual death of the planet. I didn’t know that beforehand and, I must admit, I did feel slightly guilty.

Round two was a post he put up a story about a Particular PhD Scientist who challenged GPs to inoculate themselves with the MMR vaccine, the dose adjusted for their body mass. The challenge was apparently rejected thereby proving vaccination was dangerous. Now, the only conspiracy I will not tolerate is the anti-vax movement and I will try to stamp it out wherever possible and with extreme prejudice. So I did a little bit of research on this scientist (I forget her name) and discovered she was a geologist. So my opening punch was to comment that I did not take medical advice from geologists, thank you very much. With the torrent of abuse I received it was obvious I was dealing with a hard core conspiracy believer. The usual came out – mercury, aluminium, general poisons which either lead to an agonising slow death over 70-80 years and sterilisation but then it got personal.

 As an engineer and lover of science I was being fooled. The great unknown powers that be have actually manipulated the educational institutions of the world, including my own, to only teach us what they wanted us to know, and that common sense and intuition were a far greater tool for knowing the physical world than the junk science that we were all exposed to.

My response to this was that intuition and common sense don’t go very far when designing an aircraft, or a bridge or a building or any number of structures. Common sense and intuition is what lead early medicinal practitioners to use trepanning, prayer and appeal to god/gods. No, we are all being duped and we are so blind and believe ‘them’ so much that we have no hope of salvation.

Then came the final encounter. New footage of the ‘missile’ that struck the pentagon in the 11th of September attacks. I did maybe 10 minute’s internet research to find this particular video is fake. It’s a doctored video of the pentagon during the 60’s taken from the air. I pointed this out to him and the tirades continued. If it wasn’t a missile then what was it, because it sure as hell wasn’t a plane. He then posted the In Plane Site video, which I debunked, explained where the inconsistencies were and showed where and how the producers manipulated evidence and blatantly lied.

There is an opening in the video where the narrator explains where the US Government had lied and that showed, to paraphrase, dishonesty and even guilt. Naturally the lies discovered were due to their own circular reasoning but we won’t let that get in the way of the truth. I used this to suggest that seeing as the producers had edited certain bits to suit their own ends they were being dishonest and indeed guilty of lying themselves. Why should he trust them?

It went on and on to a point that I had to reveal to him that I was an aviation specialist, had been trained for aircraft accident investigation and had used it during my career on a number of occasions. I then went on to explain that, just from the physical evidence, in my professional opinion an aircraft had flown into the pentagon the damage and the amount of wreckage that was found was consistent with the force of the impact and the structure it struck.

Well then, apparently all that meant was that I was an arrogant SOB who thought I was better than everyone and that I should show some respect.
My final reply was short and I didn’t feel like being passive or polite anymore. I could see that we could never agree, that he was totally inflexible, utterly closed minded and paranoid. And that I shall welcome the New World Order with open arms if only for the fact that it would remove the ‘truthers’ from the gene pool. That didn’t go down well either. So I blocked him.

There is no debate, no arguing and no reasoning with these type of ‘truthers’. They will totally ignore any and all evidence presented. My little ray of light is that, at the very least, I have raised and educated my own children to be critical thinkers and rational skeptics.
It’s a long rant I know, so thanks for the therapy session. Is our hour up already?
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: ka9q on March 02, 2016, 10:32:20 PM
If it helps at all, I can say I'm looking forward to getting the MMR vaccine later this year when it'll have been two years since my stem cell ("bone marrow") transplant. Until then, it's medically contraindicated and I must rely on herd immunity and whatever antibodies I have left over from prior to my transplant (they're not being replaced).

So yeah, I take this anti-vaxx stuff pretty personally too.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: gillianren on March 03, 2016, 02:04:58 AM
A friend's son survived measles a year ago.  He was four months old--eight months too young for MMR.  The internet responded by deciding that my friend doesn't exist, because his last name is Loop and he named his son Mobius.  And also, apparently, because there is green in their house?  I don't understand that part.  Still, I've declared Chris my imaginary friend.  Haven't had one of those in over thirty years!
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: ineluki on March 03, 2016, 05:28:25 AM
because his last name is Loop and he named his son Mobius.

Truth to be told, someone called "Mobius Loop" would have made me suspicous too. Far to close to "George Kaplan", "Eve Kendall" and the other witnesses in "Dark Side of the Moon"...
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: bknight on March 03, 2016, 07:24:10 AM
It is probably not possible to "convert" or converse with the hard core CT's as they "know" the truth and we have been duped.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: gillianren on March 03, 2016, 12:46:04 PM
because his last name is Loop and he named his son Mobius.

Truth to be told, someone called "Mobius Loop" would have made me suspicous too. Far to close to "George Kaplan", "Eve Kendall" and the other witnesses in "Dark Side of the Moon"...

I read a blog that demanded to know what the kid's great-grandmothers would think of such a name.  Turns out one of Chris's grandmothers is alive and his Facebook friend, and her response was, "Well, I'm not thrilled.  But I've met Chris, so I'm also not surprised."
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Chief on March 03, 2016, 06:41:30 PM
Reminds me of the couple in the UK who, in the 80s, named their son Valentine, their surname was Card.

Who does that to a child?
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Sus_pilot on March 03, 2016, 09:27:12 PM
Well, Bill Lear's daughter seems to have turned out OK (look her up, I won't spoil it).
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: gillianren on March 04, 2016, 02:14:35 AM
Reminds me of the couple in the UK who, in the 80s, named their son Valentine, their surname was Card.

Who does that to a child?

My friend Chris, clearly.  I've never said anything to him, but I've rolled my eyes for over a year now.  For what it's worth, they call him Mobi, and he does have a normal-person middle name.  If he hates his name, he can go by something else.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Kiwi on March 04, 2016, 04:00:36 AM
Who does that to a child?

Oh, it can get worse. Or better, depending on your point of view.  :)


Manawatu Evening Standard (New Zealand),  Saturday 19 July 1969, page 3
Apollo-11

NZPA-Reuter — Beirut, July 18
   A 40-year-old Lebanese housewife has named her eleventh child Apollo-11.  Mrs Rifka Salim, a mother of seven girls and three boys, appeared on television tonight with her newly-born baby boy.  She said:  Who knows, he may land on the moon one day.


And from the Apollo 11 voice transcripts at about 8:09:39 pm on 23 July 1969 British Standard Time:

173:37:39 Capcom: A little closer to home here, back in Memphis, Tennessee, a young lady who is presently tipping the scales at 8 pounds, 2 ounces, was named "Module" by her parents, Mr. and Mrs. Eddie Lee McGhee. "It wasn't my idea," said Mrs. McGhee, "It was my husband's." She said she had balked at the name Lunar Module McGhee, because it didn't sound too good, but apparently they have compromised on just Module. Over.


The Apollo 11 Flight Journal adds:
http://history.NASA.gov/ap11fj/24day8-news-checks.htm

[As of July 2009, Module McGhee is living in Columbus, Georgia. She is a mother and a special education teacher, and apparently loves her unusual name. She was mentioned in Norman Mailer's "Of A Fire on the Moon", 1970.]


Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Count Zero on March 05, 2016, 12:16:47 PM
The usual came out – mercury, aluminium, general poisons which either lead to an agonising slow death over 70-80 years...

OK, that made me guffaw!
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Dalhousie on March 05, 2016, 10:37:09 PM
So I did a little bit of research on this scientist (I forget her name) and discovered she was a geologist. So my opening punch was to comment that I did not take medical advice from geologists, thank you very much.

One behalf of geologists the world over I apologise for this nutter in our ranks. 
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: bknight on March 06, 2016, 09:05:00 AM
So I did a little bit of research on this scientist (I forget her name) and discovered she was a geologist. So my opening punch was to comment that I did not take medical advice from geologists, thank you very much.

One behalf of geologists the world over I apologise for this nutter in our ranks.
Yes, I find the same thought emanating from me concerning the engineers who come a spew out BS concerning any of the popular CT's.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: BazBear on March 07, 2016, 12:42:59 PM
So I did a little bit of research on this scientist (I forget her name) and discovered she was a geologist. So my opening punch was to comment that I did not take medical advice from geologists, thank you very much.
d
One behalf of geologists the world over I apologise for this nutter in our ranks.
Yes, I find the same thought emanating from me concerning the engineers who come a spew out BS concerning any of the popular CT's.
From my experience, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of engineers that buy into woo of one sort or another. I'm sure it's a very very tiny minority, but a vocal one.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: bknight on March 07, 2016, 03:58:04 PM

From my experience, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of engineers that buy into woo of one sort or another. I'm sure it's a very very tiny minority, but a vocal one.


They may have graduated as an engineer, but many I believe do not work in and engineering job requiring systems analysis to solve problems and/or optimize that system.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: ka9q on March 07, 2016, 05:33:48 PM
From my experience, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of engineers that buy into woo of one sort or another. I'm sure it's a very very tiny minority, but a vocal one.
I think you're right, and as an engineer (electrical) I find this extremely distressing. We're not scientists but our entire profession rests on scientific discoveries. I can't understand how any engineer would reject the scientific method.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Chief on March 07, 2016, 06:48:12 PM
I have been guilty of circular reasoning but I can't get away from it.

If an engineer disputes what we know to be true then they aren't very good or are being dishonest. I actually believe that to be true.

How someone who claims to be an engineer or scientist and disputes the missions to the moon or the collapse of the WTC, or any number of other conspiracy subjects is beyond me.

Unfortunately because they claim to be professionals, i.e John Lear, Architects and Engineers for 9/11, Dr Judy Woods etc, it gives the conspiracy theorists, what they perceive to be, a professional endorsement.

My opinion of Richard Gage as an architect is pretty low but my only knowledge of architecture is from my daughter who is doing her masters in architecture this year.
From what I have gleaned, architecture is more an artistic discipline than scientific one. She was only exposed to the most rudimentary structural science. The majority of it being building codes and legal requirements as far as I could tell. The idea, I guess as a layman in that field, is they design the buildings and it's up to the structural engineers to turn that design into a safe reality. So from that point of view how much would Richard Gage know about the physics of the WTC collapse anyway?

I like to think of engineers as practical scientists. I'm not suggesting scientists are not practical, although I'm sure we have all known one or two. Our love of science is manifested in the practical application of our craft. One of my greatest joys is when something doesn't add up and I get to find out why, I don't cry conspiracy every time it happens because we all know that sometimes things to go the way we expect. These days I give that task to my staff especially the trainees but I do like to get away from the computer and stick my nose in sometimes.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: BazBear on March 07, 2016, 08:18:59 PM
I have been guilty of circular reasoning but I can't get away from it. <snipped for brevity>
I don't see any circular reasoning on your part.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Chief on March 07, 2016, 10:23:30 PM
I guess it is bordering on circular reasoning then.

Automatically dismissing them as dishonest or poor engineers based on nothing more than their reported opinion without discussing it with them is sort of judging them.

They don't agree with the reported facts therefore they are wrong. Of course this is if they exist in the first place as in the 2400 engineers and architects who signed Gages petition.

A bit like we do agree with the evidence as presented(set aside our own evaluation of the evidence) therefore we are shills, sheep or blind according to the CT's.

When debating/arguing I have to be very careful to avoid anything that can't be proven otherwise I could be accused of believing rather than knowing.

That's why I stick to the physics. I have no idea whether, for example the big bad US government, Freemasons, Zionists etc. orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. I doubt it very much but I have nothing to argue with. I can't really disprove it for certain. With the physics I can show numbers and demonstrate the reality of the events.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: Dalhousie on March 07, 2016, 11:02:59 PM

From my experience, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of engineers that buy into woo of one sort or another. I'm sure it's a very very tiny minority, but a vocal one.


They may have graduated as an engineer, but many I believe do not work in and engineering job requiring systems analysis to solve problems and/or optimize that system.

Or they get involved in woo outside their field of competence, for example young earthers.
Title: Re: I just needed some therapy
Post by: BazBear on March 08, 2016, 02:27:50 AM
I guess it is bordering on circular reasoning then.

Automatically dismissing them as dishonest or poor engineers based on nothing more than their reported opinion without discussing it with them is sort of judging them.

They don't agree with the reported facts therefore they are wrong. Of course this is if they exist in the first place as in the 2400 engineers and architects who signed Gages petition.

A bit like we do agree with the evidence as presented(set aside our own evaluation of the evidence) therefore we are shills, sheep or blind according to the CT's.

When debating/arguing I have to be very careful to avoid anything that can't be proven otherwise I could be accused of believing rather than knowing.

That's why I stick to the physics. I have no idea whether, for example the big bad US government, Freemasons, Zionists etc. orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. I doubt it very much but I have nothing to argue with. I can't really disprove it for certain. With the physics I can show numbers and demonstrate the reality of the events.
Okay, if you've committed a fallacy, it would be the genetic fallacy (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic) I'd think.  :)