ApolloHoax.net
Apollo Discussions => The Hoax Theory => Topic started by: Dalhousie on December 04, 2013, 05:29:16 AM
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Have any nutters started coming out of the wood work yet? There were a few about the Shenzhou spacewalk.
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As a rule of thumb, based on previous experiences, expect CTs to appear the moment CT-mongers become aware of it, which may or may not be the moment the despised "mainstream media" starts giving it coverage. :) A second candidate moment is when those pesky "debunkers" start using it in their arguments.
The Chinese spacewalk is a bit of a special case, as it originally had a large ideological component - it was given air by the Epoch Times, which has a heavy anti-PRC bias. Once started, such things gain a life of their own. It's still worth checking how the ET will cover it, though. :) May be worth a cheap laugh or two.
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There has been the start of hoax theories not 1 hour after launch. BUT get a load of this: one critic on our mate JW's YT site has claimed that the chinese probe will proooove Apollo fake because the video will be different, as will the approach, orbit and landing. No doubts the probe will be legit, but at the cost of making Apollo fake at all costs.
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Have any nutters started coming out of the wood work yet?
For the most part it seems to me that most professional conspiracists have moved past the subject, and the regular nutters have to wait for one of their experts before they know what to "think for themselves"
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...and the regular nutters have to wait for one of their experts before they know what to "think for themselves"
What an excellent summary of conspiracy thinking!
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I came across a couple of the flight vids at LiveLeak; one of the lander-sep, and the other of the earth rotating into view shortly after. In the context of this thread, I imagine that the more prominent HB accusations (in light of videos like these) will be along the lines of the ever-popular, "I can't see any stars...Fake!!"
Link to the vids: http://www.liveleak.com/view?I=caf_1385973960&comments=1
Cheers!!!
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I came across a couple of the flight vids at LiveLeak; one of the lander-sep, and the other of the earth rotating into view shortly after. In the context of this thread, I imagine that the more prominent HB accusations (in light of videos like these) will be along the lines of the ever-popular, "I can't see any stars...Fake!!"
Yeah, especially when the camera on the 3rd stage was looking directly at the sun immediately after separation. The English language commentators didn't seem very well informed; they thought they were seeing a burn of the lander's engine. If so, it went on for a very long time.
This was probably not a coincidence, it was probably to put the sun on the solar panels of the lander.
I do expect a few hoaxers to 1) discover that the first two stages of the Long March 3B are hypergolic and 2) point to this video as "proof" that the hypergolic plumes of the LM should have been visible. Never mind that this launch occurred at night.
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So far I have seen one nutter on FB has claimed that it is just edited Apollo footage. So the Chinese mission is faked but Apollo was real. Reminds me of someone here, more of an anti-Chinese rather than an anti-space agenda. The guy disappeared after that, so I did not get to ask which Apollo mission showed that particular crater we see Yutu next too, and which Apollo mission landed on Mare Imbrium from a polar orbit.
Anyway, a fantastic achievement by the Chinese, it's great to see the lunar surface again, from the surface. It's been too long.
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So have the nutter in question tell us exactly what Apollo footage was used to "fake" the new Chinese images. It's all available on line, he should have no trouble finding it.
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So have the nutter in question tell us exactly what Apollo footage was used to "fake" the new Chinese images. It's all available on line, he should have no trouble finding it.
He disappeared before I could ask this.
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He's back, so I did, specifically I said which frames or he's making it up.
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I noted with some amusement that one of the publicity videos (I believe linked from CNN) showed a simulation of the lander touchdown - with dust billowing up around it. Clearly, the computer used to produce the animation was on Earth!
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I'm glad too to see humanity back on the Moon's surface. I hope it's the sign of things to come.
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I'm glad too to see humanity back on the Moon's surface. I hope it's the sign of things to come.
So am I, although I must admit that I'm not happy that my country squandered it's lead years ago. Not jingoism on my part, but the fact that the U.S. has become a nation of risk-averse lotus eaters.
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He's back, so I did, specifically I said which frames or he's making it up.
As to be expected he had nothing but abuse, the group moderator later deleted to thread as a waste of space (and rightly)
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and which Apollo mission landed on Mare Imbrium from a polar orbit.
Excellent point, since every Apollo mission landed from a low inclination retrograde orbit (i.e., from the east) in the early morning.
I suppose someone could claim that it was faked by animating LRO imagery. But I already have a ready response.
Gone to Plaid's computer recreation of Armstrong's view during the Apollo 11 landing using LRO imagery had one big tell-tale indication: the sun angle is almost exactly the same throughout the sequence. LRO viewed the area from high altitude so its angles between the various landmarks were all small. The Apollo approach footage was shot from a much closer distance so the sun angle varies considerably. In some scenes the sun angle ranges from 0 (with very pronounced heiligenschein washing out the down-sun detail) to high enough for significant shadows to be seen.
Because Change' 3 landed from polar orbit with the sun to one side, and because the field of view of the landing camera is rather small, we don't see quite as much of a sun angle variation as we might. But I'm sure we could show that it does change, especially as the Chinese release more imagery. Anybody know how many videos were taken during the landing?
This was the first soft landing on the moon during the modern digital camera era. I wish we'd done it, but I'm happy that at least somebody did.
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Indeed. Not since Luna 24 have we had a lander on the moon, and not since Lunokhod 2 have we had a rover.
Who is 'we'? Why, the human race. Our space achievements speak for us all.
"Man must explore, and this is exploration at its finest", to quote Apollo astronaut David Scott.
Can't wait to see more. :D
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The Chinese have quite a way to go to reach NASA's standard for releasing data to the press, but it's starting to dribble out.
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/china/change3/131216photos/
I hadn't seen the picture of the lander as seen from the rover. Note the following:
1. Absolutely black sky; no stars
2. Lander covered with cheap-looking gold-painted "tin foil"
3. Shadow side of lander is brightly lit
4. No sign of blast crater under lander
5. No piles of lunar dirt on top of landing pads
Let's see just how many more we can find. Anybody see a "C" on any of those rocks? :-)
</sarcasm mode>
Can anybody orient this picture for me? Glancing at the moon tonight I noticed that it's approximately full, meaning that the lunar longitude of the sun is roughly zero. The landing site is roughly 44N 20 W, so the sun should be in the south-southeast. The shadow of the rover is to the left as seen by the lander, which means the lander is looking approximately east -- is that right?
That dish on the lander is probably designed to communicate with earth, but if I'm right about the orientation it doesn't seem to be pointed that way at the moment. I don't know the communication system; can the rover communicate only with earth or can it also relay through the lander?
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Reading some other posts and looking at it again, I think the camera on the lander is looking north, not east. It's a full moon only just tonight, so allowing for where the sun was when the lander was lowered to the surface, and looking at the approach to the landing site from the south, I think the rover's dish probably is looking back over the lander back at the earth. If so, then it's just off the top of the picture taken of the lander from the rover.
Edit: The earth should be above and a little to the left of the lander, pretty much where the dish on the rover is pointed.
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The Chinese have quite a way to go to reach NASA's standard for releasing data to the press, but it's starting to dribble out.
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/china/change3/131216photos/
I hadn't seen the picture of the lander as seen from the rover. Note the following:
1. Absolutely black sky; no stars
2. Lander covered with cheap-looking gold-painted "tin foil"
3. Shadow side of lander is brightly lit
4. No sign of blast crater under lander
5. No piles of lunar dirt on top of landing pads
Let's see just how many more we can find. Anybody see a "C" on any of those rocks? :-)
</sarcasm mode>
1. Clear & distinct tracks left in the regolith by the rover.
2. Conflicting directions in light shadows.
A certain Aussie must be royally freaking out right now as several of his hoax theories have just been sent packing by the Chinese.
I suspect he will just start calling the Chinese liars instead of admitting defeat.
How that kid survived into adulthood is beyond me.
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I suspect he will just start calling the Chinese liars instead of admitting defeat.
Which of course makes no sense.
IF the Chinese faked it, they would fake it to look exactly how they (I.E. their scientists and engineers) think it should look like.
They think it should look like Apollo.
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The Daily Mail's story about the landing attracted the usual coterie of idiots, cynics and racists. Several of the more simple-minded posters asked if the rover was going to perform a drive-by of 'the American flag' (because, of course, there's only one) in order to prove or disprove the US landings. When I pointed out that the nearest Apollo site was around a thousand km away, somebody else responded :
'How convenient'
The logical contortions implicit in those two words took my breath away.
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I suspect he will just start calling the Chinese liars instead of admitting defeat.
How that kid survived into adulthood is beyond me.
I think hoax proponents who argue on the technicalities have started to be replaced by people whose position is "the powers that be can always warp reality to make you think things that aren't true." So, there's little point in trying to prove them wrong, because any evidence that contradicts them can be dismissed with one of two dicta:
1. It's faked.
2. They're lying.
Once every bit of data is run through this sieve, we are left with faith, or preference, because there's absolutely nothing (even, to many conspiracists, the evidence of our own eyes) that cannot be invalidated by these two claims.
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I suspect he will just start calling the Chinese liars instead of admitting defeat.
Which of course makes no sense.
IF the Chinese faked it, they would fake it to look exactly how they (I.E. their scientists and engineers) think it should look like.
They think it should look like Apollo.
It makes absolutely no sense, but that is the entertaining madness in their thinking.
I read somewhere on the web recently that trying to get a conspiracy theorist to stop believing in their theories is akin to trying to get a monkey to stop liking bananas. (no offense to monkeys)
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I suspect he will just start calling the Chinese liars instead of admitting defeat.
How that kid survived into adulthood is beyond me.
I think hoax proponents who argue on the technicalities have started to be replaced by people whose position is "the powers that be can always warp reality to make you think things that aren't true." So, there's little point in trying to prove them wrong, because any evidence that contradicts them can be dismissed with one of two dicta:
1. It's faked.
2. They're lying.
Once every bit of data is run through this sieve, we are left with faith, or preference, because there's absolutely nothing (even, to many conspiracists, the evidence of our own eyes) that cannot be invalidated by these two claims.
As always, for me the issue isn't convincing the hoax believers they're wrong, but explaining to the fence sitters why the HBs are wrong. That's one reason why calm and straightforward explanations are helpful - you sound sensible in comparison to the disorganised HB. The other reason, of course, is that you remaining calm and straightforward will often send the HB over the edge into abuse, which helps reinforce the win.
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Incidentally, are there any LRO images of the landing site?
I was fascinated to watch the descent "video" on the Bad Astronomy blog, but I always like playing these sorts of videos backwards to see what the landing site looks like from a distance. The BA video is hard to play backwards, so I can't work out whether the landing site is visible at the start of the video.
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Here you are:
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=7756&hl=
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33511.495
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I find that descent from polar orbit really exciting, because it means that the Chinese have shown they can land future rovers and sample return missions anywhere on the surface. Poles, Aiken Basin anyone?
Incidently this is the first time we have rovers on two other celestial bodies at the same time.
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Here's the planned Chinese lunar sample return system, even more LM-like:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33431.0;attach=562163;image
.
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I have a ham friend in Germany who's reporting strong signals, with various modulations, on X-band coming from the moon.
I guess he's "in cahoots", huh?
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I suspect that a majority of the remaining fence-sitters--and I don't think all that many are left--are probably thinking, "Well, if the Chinese landed a probe there, doesn't that show the whole thing was possible?" I suspect the distinctions between landing a probe and landing a person, other than how much more expensive it is to land a person, are broadly lost on most people.
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There is still their golden bastion, radiation.
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Here's the planned Chinese lunar sample return system, even more LM-like:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33431.0;attach=562163;image
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Interesting. Quite different from the Luna 16, 20 and 24 system, which launched straight back to Earth from the moon's surface with its small ascent module. That looks like they are attempting unmanned lunar orbit rendezvous.
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Pity they cannot drive the probe to one of the Apollo sites and take a few photos.
That would shut a few of the idiots up!
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That would shut a few of the idiots up!
No, it really wouldn't.
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It won't shut them up any more than the people who claimed they just wanted to see Obama's original BC. As soon as any supporting evidence if offered up, it will be shot down with more claims of "fake".
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The Chinese have quite a way to go to reach NASA's standard for releasing data to the press, but it's starting to dribble out.
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/china/change3/131216photos/
I hadn't seen the picture of the lander as seen from the rover. Note the following:
1. Absolutely black sky; no stars
2. Lander covered with cheap-looking gold-painted "tin foil"
3. Shadow side of lander is brightly lit
4. No sign of blast crater under lander
5. No piles of lunar dirt on top of landing pads
Let's see just how many more we can find. Anybody see a "C" on any of those rocks? :-)
</sarcasm mode>
1. Clear & distinct tracks left in the regolith by the rover.
2. Conflicting directions in light shadows.
A certain Aussie must be royally freaking out right now as several of his hoax theories have just been sent packing by the Chinese.
I suspect he will just start calling the Chinese liars instead of admitting defeat.
How that kid survived into adulthood is beyond me.
Speaking of Jarrah, I noticed his rebuttal to SG Collins has been removed due to:
"RE: moon h..." The YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement."
His youtube site also seems to be down and the only thing I could find while searching is this brief bit:
"Urgent message for Jarrah White's subscribers. 411 views 1 day ago ... by New Years Eve. In the meantime, I invite subscribers to subscribe to my other account....."
Just wondering if anybody knows what's going on?
Edit:
Looks like Vincent was behind this:
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I'm getting 'an error occurred' on that video, I am afraid.
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The Chinese have quite a way to go to reach NASA's standard for releasing data to the press, but it's starting to dribble out.
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/china/change3/131216photos/
I hadn't seen the picture of the lander as seen from the rover. Note the following:
1. Absolutely black sky; no stars
2. Lander covered with cheap-looking gold-painted "tin foil"
3. Shadow side of lander is brightly lit
4. No sign of blast crater under lander
5. No piles of lunar dirt on top of landing pads
Let's see just how many more we can find. Anybody see a "C" on any of those rocks? :-)
</sarcasm mode>
1. Clear & distinct tracks left in the regolith by the rover.
2. Conflicting directions in light shadows.
A certain Aussie must be royally freaking out right now as several of his hoax theories have just been sent packing by the Chinese.
I suspect he will just start calling the Chinese liars instead of admitting defeat.
How that kid survived into adulthood is beyond me.
Speaking of Jarrah, I noticed his rebuttal to SG Collins has been removed due to:
"RE: moon h..." The YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement."
His youtube site also seems to be down and the only thing I could find while searching is this brief bit:
"Urgent message for Jarrah White's subscribers. 411 views 1 day ago ... by New Years Eve. In the meantime, I invite subscribers to subscribe to my other account....."
Just wondering if anybody knows what's going on?
Edit:
Looks like Vincent was behind this:
I went to youtube. His account has been "terminated due to multiple third party copyright infringement claims."
I can only imagine the agonizing drama going on down under right now.
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I felt a tiny disturbance in the Net, as if a single voice suddenly cried out in terror and was suddenly silenced.
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I went to youtube. His account has been "terminated due to multiple third party copyright infringement claims."
I can only imagine the agonizing drama going on down under right now.
It will be put down as all being a part of a global Google/NASA mega-conspiracy to silence he and other "truth tellers". Them Google/NASA shills are all in cahoots with the FBI/NSA/CIA/FEMA/MiB/HS/SIS/Mi5 acronymicists!
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I felt a tiny disturbance in the Net, as if a single voice suddenly cried out in terror and was suddenly silenced.
That was just a bit of wind..... the internet would not care a jot.
Meanwhile, another bastion of excellence somewhere over the border has an infliction of self imposed experts, the stupid reigns, all is right in the world.
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At JREF one of the notorious uber-trolls has claimed the Chinese lander shows a "color" landscape (i.e., warm grays) whereas the Apollo 70mm photography shows uniform neutral gray.
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At JREF one of the notorious uber-trolls has claimed the Chinese lander shows a "color" landscape (i.e., warm grays) whereas the Apollo 70mm photography shows uniform neutral gray.
Because, of course, that wouldn't depend on the colour balance of the camera in question. ::)
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At JREF one of the notorious uber-trolls has claimed the Chinese lander shows a "color" landscape (i.e., warm grays) whereas the Apollo 70mm photography shows uniform neutral gray.
Reminds me of the report in "Life" after Surveyor 3 landed the first colour TV camera on the moon. It was along the lines of "Now we can see the moon in its true colour - a rich and varied grey."
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Sounds like Youtube hoaxer awe130. He claims that a picture from the Chang'e lander has proved there's life on the lunar surface.
His evidence? Patches of slight color on the ground.
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At JREF one of the notorious uber-trolls has claimed the Chinese lander shows a "color" landscape (i.e., warm grays) whereas the Apollo 70mm photography shows uniform neutral gray.
Because, of course, that wouldn't depend on the colour balance of the camera in question. ::)
Or the fact that the first photos were from journalists photographing the large projection screen in the mission control room, not actual downloads from the spacecraft camera.
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There is that. I hope we get some better pictures from a more direct source soon.
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Awe has already gone down the "it is taking too long for new photos therefore it is as fake as Apollo" path. It's a sad, sad world actually.
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Well, I do wish China was being a little more forthcoming.
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It's their mission, they can do what they want. We have seen some nice images and video.
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It's their mission, they can do what they want. We have seen some nice images and video.
I know, I know. I can still wish though. ;)
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Well, I do wish China was being a little more forthcoming.
There is probably some sort of delay while they photoshop out any evidence of
Alien UFO bases
Alien Life forms
Secret Chinese Moonbases
(delete as applicable)
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LROC images are in. Before and after at http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/index.php?/archives/849-Change-3-Lander-and-Rover-From-Above.html
Apparently LRO is at a much higher orbit than before so resolution is only 2 m, instead of 0.5. Both rover and lander are visible as white shadow-casting objects not present before, and a possible trail connecting the two.
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There is probably some sort of delay while they photoshop out any evidence of
Alien UFO bases
Alien Life forms
Secret Chinese Moonbases
(delete as applicable)
That's assuming they're on the Moon of course. If it's actually the Gobi desert, they'll have to airbrush out the yurts and yaks...
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There is probably some sort of delay while they photoshop out any evidence of
Alien UFO bases
Alien Life forms
Secret Chinese Moonbases
(delete as applicable)
That's assuming they're on the Moon of course. If it's actually the Gobi desert, they'll have to airbrush out the yurts and yaks...
I hope you are joking
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There is probably some sort of delay while they photoshop out any evidence of
Alien UFO bases
Alien Life forms
Secret Chinese Moonbases
(delete as applicable)
That's assuming they're on the Moon of course. If it's actually the Gobi desert, they'll have to airbrush out the yurts and yaks...
I hope you are joking
Of course he's joking. There are no yaks in the Gobi Desert...
(I know there are yaks in the Gobi but don't point that out and ruin my joke.)
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Of course he's joking. There are no yaks in the Gobi Desert...
That's what they want you to think.
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Of course he's joking. There are no yaks in the Gobi Desert...
That's what they want you to think.
what are we yakking about?
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Of course he's joking. There are no yaks in the Gobi Desert...
Yes there are yaks, but they don't talk back!
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Of course he's joking. There are no yaks in the Gobi Desert...
What about Yakkos?
(http://photos.imageevent.com/datacable/apollo/Yakko-China.png)
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I was Warner-ing about that.
Was driving me Dotty in fact.