ApolloHoax.net
Apollo Discussions => The Hoax Theory => Topic started by: Rob260259 on September 14, 2015, 01:44:32 PM
-
My friend Astrobrant2 made me do this (LOL).
This video shows another attitude towards A11 conference.
-
I have watched many of the HB videos concerning the press conference and attempting to describe body language and facial characteristics of the three during the question/answer period. I really always wondered what I would have acted like, being the first of mankind to land and survey another body in space. Quite a feeling and I believe that their future lives indicated the constant pressure that they felt from everywhere drove them to alcoholism, depression etc. I think they handled it better than I. :)
-
I am now more firmly convinced than ever that it was not the "stress of the mission" or the extreme significance of the actions they all undertook, that drove them into depression or alcoholism, or to religious fanaticism, or any of the other behaviors that fall outside the public's expectation of what their behavior should be. I am convinced that it was the media, these forerunners of today's paparazzi, those looking for some new sound bite or quip that caused all of that. These men were test pilots. They were scientists, engineers, geologists, and all were fully embroiled in their own passions for technology and science. What the hell do "feelings" have to do with any of that? And they subconsciously rebelled against anyone asking them to describe how something felt. "Who the hell cares how I felt?" they must have thought. "I rode a rocket to another body in the solar system. Isn't that scientifically and technologically awesome?"
That's what I think.
-
I think both of you are spot on. There's also the "What do I do now?" depression that follows one reaching a pinnacle of accomplishment.
-
And, to my understanding, one or two of them had family history and might well have had those problems regardless of anything else they did or didn't do in their lives.
-
A couple of facts stick-out in my mind:
- Armstrong, Aldrin & Collins were released from quarantine at 9am on Saturday, August 10th, and whisked home to their families.
- The press conference was at 10am Monday morning, August 12, after which they departed on their world tour which, iIrc, lasted a couple of months.
Now, the astronaut community of the time has bee described (by Tom Wolfe and others) as a close-knit bunch of work-hard/play-hard jet-jocks. These three had just reached the pinnacle of their profession and it's not unreasonable to assume that they'd want to celebrate with the only people who'd really understand and appreciate what they'd been through.
This is conjecture, but assuming they spent the rest of Saturday with their families, that would have left only Sunday the 11th to tear it up with their homies. I'd be willing to bet that, on Monday morning at the press conference, at least one and possibly two of those guys are hung-over.
People see them at the press conference and wonder why they don't look like celebrating; my guess is they already did and are paying for it on the morning after.
-
And, to my understanding, one or two of them had family history and might well have had those problems regardless of anything else they did or didn't do in their lives.
I think you're right.
Armstrong rarely talked about himself. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that he ever said about himself was that he was there to do a job.
I think that his detachment from himself, versus the job he was there to do, is what made him so appropriate for that crew selection.
I've heard the story (from people who were there) about his ejection from the LLRV. He really did bite his tongue on landing, and when one of the other astronauts came to his desk (I think it was Bean) to ask about it, he really was non-chalant about it. That was just him.
He was no "Icy Commander" then "Smilin Al" like Shepard, and he most definitely wasn't a "come day, go day" like Pete Conrad. Of all the others, he was probably most like Grissom. I say that based on the story of the famous visit to the Convair plant when the MR-4 launch vehicle was being built, and the plant manager asked him to say something to the workers. Rather taken aback at being put on the spot, and completely uncomfortable with speaking about himself or what he was feeling, he just stammered out "Do good work" All the while thinking "Because it's my ass that's going to be riding this thing you're building"
I think Armstrong was probably just like that. There was far more to the man than what he ever let out in public.
Aldrin, on the other hand, well, he had to deal with his politically-connected, domineering, overbearing father constantly reminding him that he could intervene with "the brass" to get Buzz to be the first one out, so he wouldn't have to live with the stigma of only being the second man on the moon.
Collins, the intellectual and deep philosophical thinker of the crew, well, his sense of humor was very clear throughout the entire post-flight public appearances. Dry, droll, and somewhat underwhelmed. I think he spent most of his time on the flight back, thinking about what he would have had to face if the ascent engine hadn't lit.
Think about those things those guys had to deal with, and there you have it.
-
I once did some screenshots from that press conference of them laughing and joking and was accused of taking things out of context and that it was easy to cherry pick moments to prove a point. My irony meter went up to 11.
I always cite the pre-flight press conference too. It was much less comfortable and you can see from Armstrong's responses why he was the commander, he was much more relaxed and composed and able to communicate things simply and clearly.
-
Thank you all for great replies.
The problem with society 'today' is that it really does not understand why these men were not media whores, as are many of todays talentless wannabes. What the hoaxers absolutely do not understand; these men were not raised to beat their chest, or do the funk dance or pat themselves on the back for their achievements. They are not like many of todays athletes. They were modest, humble & focused on the task at hand. Otherwise NASA would not let them fly and do the mission. Any little distraction could cost them their lives & impede the space effort if an accident occurred. Armstrong really was very unique. He was very intelligent and at the same time, very introverted. What appears convienently for detractors of the space program as 'guilt' (or whatever), is actually a genuine (and appealing) modesty and humbleness which is the core of Armstrong's personality of honesty and integrity.
-
I think both of you are spot on. There's also the "What do I do now?" depression that follows one reaching a pinnacle of accomplishment.
Not for a moment wishing to compare myself to the crew of Apollo 11, but I know a little of this feeling.
I've mentioned this story previously, but I think it's worth repeating. I used to learn ballroom dancing (ballroom, latin and rock'n'roll). The studio I learned at held a couple of balls a year, which were a chance for students to dress up and have a bit of fun with their dancing; there'd be a live band, plus during band breaks the staff would play CDs of music we used at the studio, so we got to try out on a proper dance floor all the fancy steps we'd learned in our lessons.
But in addition to the general dancing, we could learn and perform routines. This involved selecting a piece of music and an appropriate dance, then getting your teacher to prepare a choreography. You then had 26 lessons to learn the dance with your teacher - not just the steps but making it look good too. Then on the night of the ball you performed the routine - 2 1/2 to 3 minutes of live choreographed performance in front of an audience of a couple of hundred, including plenty of people who knew their dancing.
The experience was pretty special. You'd start by discussing with your teacher a suitable dance and looking for some music to go with it, along with discussing ideas about how to present the dance (some students just wanted to do a dance, but others (including me) wanted the routine to include a bit of a story). The teacher would take the music and create a choreography. Then there'd be perhaps 8 to 10 lessons to actually learn the sequence of steps. The remaining lessons would go to refining your technique - styling, or changing bits of choreography if necessary, or working out little additions to the routine before the dancing began (as part of the above-mentioned story). At the same time you'd be looking for (or making) costumes and props. Then, about a week before the ball would be dress rehearsal, at which there'd inevitably be problems - some part of the costume would fail, or you'd forget part of the choreography, or you'd misstep and make a very obvious grimace. Finally there'd be the big night - butterflies in the tummy as your performance time approached, getting changed into your costume, waiting in the wings with your teacher for your name to be called. Then there was the performance itself - bright lights, loud music, the audience a blur as you tried to remember all the steps and styling, and at the same time try to make it look as though you were enjoying every second of it even as you felt a dull terror, adrenaline coursing through your body.
And then it would be over. You'd change back into your tuxedo or ball gown, slump back in your seat to watch the remaining routines, get your trophy at the end of the evening. You'd probably even head out to the night clubs for a few hours more dancing with friends.
The following morning? A huge downer. And I don't mean a hangover - I've never been a big drinker. It's just that you've invested months of lessons and quite a bit of money in the experience, and the pinnacle of that experience was a performance lasting less than three minutes, which hopefully went well (most do, but some don't). But after that there's virtually nothing. Yes, you'd get a trophy, and a few weeks later you'd get a DVD of the ball and get a chance to watch it all over again. But you never get to perform that routine again; that costume, that choreography, that particular set of circumstances - they're all history.
I still remember the feeling the morning after I performed my first routine: so strong was the downer that if I'd been told I would never be allowed to dance again I would have accepted it. (As it happened the staff at the studio were clever - they'd open the studio on the Sunday with biccies, hot coffee and a raw copy of the video, and try to lure people into signing up for another routine, a shtick which worked remarkably frequently.)
And in broad terms I think the comparison between the preparation for and performance of a dance routine and the preparation for and performance of an Apollo mission works well - the initial setting of the parameters of the routine/mission; training, initially in parts and then increasingly integrated and realistic; a final dress rehearsal; and then the actual event, taking a fraction of the preparation time. Using my own experiences as a guideline, I'm not in the slightest surprised that the astronauts experienced a huge downer in the weeks after their mission.
(And just to make a more direct connection, for one routine the music I used was Tasmin Archer's "Sleeping Satellite". For a costume I wore what you might call Mission Control uniform - dark pants, dark tie, white shirt with sleeves rolled up and with the Apollo 11 mission badge sewn on, while my teacher wore a typical late 60s miniskirt. For a prop we found an old radio sitting on a table. And to top and tail the music we added the voices of the Apollo 11 astronauts at touchdown and first step.)
-
A couple of facts stick-out in my mind:
- Armstrong, Aldrin & Collins were released from quarantine at 9am on Saturday, August 10th, and whisked home to their families.
- The press conference was at 10am Monday morning, August 12, after which they departed on their world tour which, iIrc, lasted a couple of months.
Now, the astronaut community of the time has bee described (by Tom Wolfe and others) as a close-knit bunch of work-hard/play-hard jet-jocks. These three had just reached the pinnacle of their profession and it's not unreasonable to assume that they'd want to celebrate with the only people who'd really understand and appreciate what they'd been through.
This is conjecture, but assuming they spent the rest of Saturday with their families, that would have left only Sunday the 11th to tear it up with their homies. I'd be willing to bet that, on Monday morning at the press conference, at least one and possibly two of those guys are hung-over.
People see them at the press conference and wonder why they don't look like celebrating; my guess is they already did and are paying for it on the morning after.
The timeline was correct but they did take their wives on the trip. Still all in all it wasn't the most "family" oriented activity.
http://www.wingnet.org/rtw/RTW005JJ.HTM
-
I know, but like the girl in the blue gingham dress said, "There's no place like home."
-
Peter, I suspect several of us have similar stories. (I myself got to world finals of an academic competition in high school, and I played at Carnegie Hall in eighth grade!) And if ours are nowhere near as extreme, well, that probably means the emotional impact is nowhere near as extreme.
-
Peter, I suspect several of us have similar stories. (I myself got to world finals of an academic competition in high school, and I played at Carnegie Hall in eighth grade!) And if ours are nowhere near as extreme, well, that probably means the emotional impact is nowhere near as extreme.
Indeed, after throwing myself into the final year of my first degree, spending all hours in the library and studying, the massive hole left in life when the final exam was over took some filling! Everything you'd worked towards for years suddenly happened and then it all stopped!
-
Indeed, after throwing myself into the final year of my first degree, spending all hours in the library and studying, the massive whole left in life when the final exam was over took some filling! Everything you'd worked towards for years suddenly happened and then it all stopped!
With just working on a Bachelor's degree, I didn't have a hole that needed to be filled with the exception of my pockets. I wanted to get gainfully employed and quit living like a always broke student. :)
-
Regarding the Apollo 11 post-flight press conference, my own simple explanation is that at the start of it, all three astronauts probably felt many, many times more uncomfortable about being there than they felt a few weeks before about going to the moon and landing on it.
Excellent post, Peter B. As usual!
I have watched many of the HB videos concerning the press conference and attempting to describe body language and facial characteristics of the three during the question/answer period.
Their descriptions usually match exactly what the HBs want them to match, and they are so sure that they are right.
My own impressions of body language and facial expressions after more than 30 years of dealing with the public, are that they can be useful at times in face-to-face situations when there are other signals present, but there are plenty of exceptions to the "rules." Nervousness or confusion or discomfort can override everything. And some mannerisms have no meaning at all -- they are just trivial actions or even bad habits, and nothing more.
Much of the time, I prefer to not continuously look people in the eye when they are talking to me, and also sometimes even when I'm talking, which I'm aware could give the impression that I'm dodgy or dishonest. But doing so often gives me a sort of emotional overload which blocks out their words, so I'd rather look away and concentrate on just their words -- take them literally rather than make up airy-fairy nonsense about what they "really mean."
However, if I'm dubious about what someone is saying I'll watch them for clues, and will look people in the eye when I'm trying to convince them I'm being honest. Which I am most of the time anyway.
I've even come across badly-trained salespeople who overdid it by getting out their catalogue and, instead of pointing at something in it with one finger, pointed with their full, open hand with their palm facing me. It was so corny, insincere and laughable!
On one occasion I had a rare few minutes to toy with a young, new salesman who was over-enthusiastic about some new product that underwhelmed me, so I first tried to convey my disinterest verbally and got no response. He was only part-way through his text-book spiel. So I said I had little time left and slowly moved back from the counter, leaned back against the wall, turned my body slightly away from him, folded both arms tightly across my chest, hunched my shoulders forward in a shrug, crossed my ankles, locked my knees together, and gazed up at a far corner of the ceiling while he still prattled on... Until I abruptly excused myself with "Gotta go," darted back to the task at hand and hoped he learnt something. Assuming that he noticed anything!
-
I think both of you are spot on. There's also the "What do I do now?" depression that follows one reaching a pinnacle of accomplishment.
Not for a moment wishing to compare myself to the crew of Apollo 11, but I know a little of this feeling.
I've mentioned this story previously, but I think it's worth repeating. I used to learn ballroom dancing... [etc.]
Now to get an idea of how the Apollo 11 astronauts must have felt, multiply that by,...what?
Very good point, Peter. Unfortunately, I doubt that there are many conspiracy theorists who will ever be able to relate to it. ('nuf said)
-
Now to get an idea of how the Apollo 11 astronauts must have felt, multiply that by,...what?
EASY: Any off-the-planet or astronomical figure. ;D
-
I can't remember which of them it was who said this, but it seems like it might be Buzz... "The melancholy of all things done. Is this all there is? Is there nothing more?"
And I also can't remember which one of them said, when asked what the hardest part of the flight was, responded, "The press conference after the flight." Gus, I think.
Those times and those men were so different from what the world is today, that I really don't think they fit in anywhere, except at the Cape or in Houston.
-
I can't remember which of them it was who said this, but it seems like it might be Buzz... "The melancholy of all things done. Is this all there is? Is there nothing more?"
I'm pretty sure that was from Star Trek, the movie...
-
I can't remember which of them it was who said this, but it seems like it might be Buzz... "The melancholy of all things done. Is this all there is? Is there nothing more?"
I'm pretty sure that was from Star Trek, the movie...
Although having said that...
http://www.moon-shot.com/melancholy-of-all-things-done.html
Something similar was said to describe "V-ger's" existential crisis as it returned to search for its creator in Star Trek, but it was Aldrin who said it, probably borrowing from Nietzsche's “The melancholy of everything completed!”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200105/buzz-aldrin-down-earth
-
I can't remember which of them it was who said this, but it seems like it might be Buzz... "The melancholy of all things done. Is this all there is? Is there nothing more?"
There's a scene in From The Earth To The Moon (the Tom Hanks miniseries) where Alan Bean says something similar to Pete Conrad.
-
There's a scene in From The Earth To The Moon (the Tom Hanks miniseries) where Alan Bean says something similar to Pete Conrad.
That probably came from Andrew Chaikin's excellent book A Man on the Moon, page 283:
Conrad kept these thoughts to himself as Yankee Clipper headed home, and he had no idea whether his crewmates felt the same way. He was quite surprised when Al Bean turned to him and said, as if he could read his mind, "It's kind of like the song: Is that all there is?"
-
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200105/buzz-aldrin-down-earth
Here's a marvellous quote from Buzz Aldrin in that interview:
When we returned from the moon, we saw the reaction of the people. And I said to Neil, "We missed the whole thing." We didn't share the moment of exhilaration here on Earth. We were sort of out of town doing something else.
And immediately following that, the sad stuff -- jealousy and envy:
RE: Were you prepared for life back on Earth?
BA: After we got back, I wasn't prepared to be in the public eye. I traveled around the world and met many people. At one point, we visited 23 countries in 45 days. I also thought that going to the moon couldn't be topped. So I left NASA and returned to the Air Force. But I don't think the Air Force knew what to do with someone who went to the moon.
I was an outsider. I was the egghead from academia who got in because the rules had changed. While I looked for validation from my fellow contemporaries, I instead found jealousy and envy. I did not find team spirit. This led to dissatisfaction, an unease.
-
I can't remember which of them it was who said this, but it seems like it might be Buzz... "The melancholy of all things done. Is this all there is? Is there nothing more?"
I'm pretty sure that was from Star Trek, the movie...
Never seen any of the Star Trek movies.
No, I read this somewhere, in one of the myriad books written about the Apollo program.
-
There's a scene in From The Earth To The Moon (the Tom Hanks miniseries) where Alan Bean says something similar to Pete Conrad.
That probably came from Andrew Chaikin's excellent book A Man on the Moon, page 283:
Conrad kept these thoughts to himself as Yankee Clipper headed home, and he had no idea whether his crewmates felt the same way. He was quite surprised when Al Bean turned to him and said, as if he could read his mind, "It's kind of like the song: Is that all there is?"
I think this might be well where I am misremembering it from.
-
I think this might be well where I am misremembering it from.
Everyone does it. Usually it starts with the phrase "I seem to recall...". You do it. I do it. Everyone.
However, if it is not immediately followed by the phrase "Let me check that." then it is likely baloney.
-
It had to be difficult, starting right after recovery. As if they hadn't been around each other enough in the months ahead of the mission, after landing, they were cooped up together in quarantine. Immediately thereafter, they are before the press, then off on a whirlwind world tour, with all the repetitive bells and whistles associated therewith. I suspect they'd had enough of each other for a while.
Must have been hell...they knew they were done flying, and had a lot of regrouping to do to figure out what was next in their lives.
-
I also imagine that, first man or not, there's only so much of this you can stand:
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2v16srl.jpg)
-
It is interesting to watch people fluff it up in live TV, the news channels are good for this. Someone who will be confident in front of many people face to face can be turned to a quivering wreck when the studio says "on you now" in the ear piece. Even reporters can do it when the notion of the piece to camera is now going to be live and national rather than just for local consumption.
But then you have the people that just shine but ask them off camera where the coffee machine is and they are different again.
I expect many public facing political press officers are not long for the in front of the camera job and senior politicians are polished up before being let loose.
Always wondered where the hoax for this would be if some of them spent some time as a runner for a news station.
-
If you were choosing guys to front a hoax wouldn't you ensure they're good on TV? I do think however that if the opposite were true the hoax argument would be that they're too relaxed, they've been trained, it's just too normal. All inputs lead to the same outputs with these guys.
-
If you were choosing guys to front a hoax wouldn't you ensure they're good on TV? I do think however that if the opposite were true the hoax argument would be that they're too relaxed, they've been trained, it's just too normal. All inputs lead to the same outputs with these guys.
Absolutely. Additionally, they knew Patrick Moore was going to be there and asking a question. He's an astronomer, so I tend to think somebody, somewhere might have briefed them all that he was going to ask a question about stars? Then filled them in on the "correct answers" to give.
-
I would be limiting exposure. Reducing the risk of discovery.
But then that is hard to do when it is all out in the open.
-
A long time ago on this board's predecessor, we had a discussion of how, with what we know, would we have pulled-off a moon-landing hoax. To put it another way, what would the historical record look like if it WAS hoaxed.
The answer was, "nothing like the historical project."
Some key points:
- Military oversight (i.e. no NASA)
- "Skunk Works" spacecraft development ("Can't risk the Russkies getting this technology.")
- No television ("We'd have to develop special light-weight cameras. Not gonna happen.")
- Photography limited to just a few images (if any - "The radiation fogged the film. Sorry!")
- Only one mission ("Too dangerous - These guys barely got back alive.")
- No returned samples (The chance of space-germs not worth the risk)
- No continuous telemetry or voice link
- Encrypted comms
- Limited press access to the astronauts
- No press access to Mission Control
...and that's just a few things needed, because every public opening (photo, communication, test, etc.) is an opportunity to screw-up and get caught.
-
The openness of the program allows the HB's community to pour over documents/images/transmissions to cherry pick "anomalies" to present to the unsuspecting public, however.