Author Topic: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy  (Read 5954 times)

Offline Peter B

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For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« on: July 07, 2016, 09:05:52 AM »
Over in the Brexit thread, ka9q asked:
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I really hate to ask this at such an especially bad time, but could one of you Brits give this confused Yank a very brief thumbnail sketch of the structure of the British government, especially as it contrasts with the US version? Whenever I think I'm starting to understand it, I realize I don't.

I know the main difference is we have a presidential system in which a separately elected chief executive runs a separate executive branch of government while you have a Parliamentary system in which the executive is the leader of the majority party in the legislature. While our elections occur on fixed timetables and it is intentionally difficult but not impossible for our Congress to get rid of the US president before an election, you have something called a "vote of no confidence" and seem able to call elections and change prime ministers on short notice.

I know that although we both have two houses in the legislature, our "higher" house is elected and yours isn't. Our system seems structured to perpetuate two dominant political parties because of a "prisoner's dilemma" type situation discouraging votes for third parties; in your system, multiple parties and coalitions seem common.

In our system, impeachment is just one element of what seems to be a much more explicit separation of powers and "checks and balances" between branches of government. And of course we have all this in a written constitution that everyone at least claims to hold in very high regard, and which is formally interpreted by a separate branch of government, the judiciary, using a system of common law that we inherited from you guys.

So, what important differences did I miss?

Well, this sort of stuff interests me, so if people are willing to indulge a few airy posts, I thought I'd provide a bit of an answer.

Australia, Canada and New Zealand, among other countries, have followed the lead of the UK in setting up parliamentary democracies, although each country has taken things in slightly different directions. In Australia's case, many of the people (all right, the men) who wrote our Constitution at the end of the 19th century were quite impressed by the US Constitution, so our document includes quite a few bits and pieces adopted from the American system.

On top of that, just to make things interesting, we've just had a general election, with the result so close it's still in doubt and will be for a couple of weeks.

Anyway, here goes...
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Offline Peter B

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2016, 09:17:59 AM »
The simplest way to explain the Westminster system of Parliamentary government to an American is to take the US system of government and change it by the minimum amount to match the Westminster system.

The main difference between the two systems of government is that in the US system the Executive and the Legislature are entirely separate, while in the Westminster system the Executive consists of people who are part of the Legislature. One consequence of the US system is that the Executive and Legislature can be controlled by differing parties, while this is effectively impossible in the Westminster system.

So, to start, imagine you took the US system of government, and abolish the offices of President and VP. The government would now be formed by whichever party had a majority in the House of Representatives (~ the House of Commons in the UK, or the House of Representative in Oz), and the leader of the majority party would be Prime Minister. The leader of the main minority party becomes the Leader of the Opposition. Secretaries (of State, Defense, etc) would be nominated by the PM instead of the President, and must be members of Congress. There is no requirement for acceptance hearings or votes.

The Executive, which under the US system is completely separate from the Legislature, is now part of the Legislature – the PM and inner cabinet form the Executive, under the nominal chairmanship of…oh whoops…!

The office of President is re-created, but it’s now a largely ceremonial office. Depending on how you wanted to do it, the President might be popularly elected, elected by Congress, or nominated by the PM (in Australia the Governor General is chosen by the Queen on the advice of the PM, which means in practice that the PM chooses the GG). The President’s jobs include inviting the leader of the majority party in the House of Reps after each election to form government, nominally chairing the Executive, signing into law the bills which have passed both Houses, and accepting the PM’s advice to dissolve Congress and call an election (which may depend on whether this new-fangled system has fixed terms). One other power the President might have is to dismiss a Prime Minister who has lost a vote in the House of Reps.

The US House of Reps is similar to the British House of Commons in that both are filled with members elected to represent single-member electorates. The US Senate has a similar function to the British House of Lords, although they’re filled very differently. A better comparison would be to the Australian Senate; this is one place where Australia copied the US system, with equal numbers of Senators for each state (12 in Australia’s case, plus two for each territory) chosen by a form of proportional representation.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2016, 11:43:43 AM »
So, to ka9q's specific questions:

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I know the main difference is we have a presidential system in which a separately elected chief executive runs a separate executive branch of government while you have a Parliamentary system in which the executive is the leader of the majority party in the legislature. While our elections occur on fixed timetables and it is intentionally difficult but not impossible for our Congress to get rid of the US president before an election, you have something called a "vote of no confidence" and seem able to call elections and change prime ministers on short notice.

Okay, a few issues here. It's also worth noting that processes differ across jurisdictions.

Fixed term elections: This occurs in some Parliamentary systems. For example, here in Australia, several states have legislated for fixed terms. This simply means that, if nothing else goes wrong, the next election will be in three years (or whatever the chosen duration is).

However, at the Federal level in Australia, three years is simply the maximum term for a Parliament, and the PM can always ask the Governor General to dissolve Parliament early. This can be a risky decision: it might be tempting for the PM to call an early election if the Opposition is in disarray, but if the decision is seen as being purely for such political reasons that might not go down well with the voters.

But even with fixed Parliamentary terms, it might occasionally happen that an election would be called early. If that happened, then the next election after that would simply be three years after that early election, thus setting up a new electoral cycle.

Vote of No Confidence: As mentioned earlier, the government is formed by whichever party holds the majority in the House of Representatives. Most of the time this isn't an issue - at the 2013 Federal election, the Liberal-National Coalition won 90 seats out of 150, so it easily formed government. Party discipline is very strict in Australia, so it's very unlikely that sitting members would vote against their party.

However, the previous election in 2010 saw the Australian Labor Party (ALP) forming a minority government with the assistance of independent Members of the House. As it happened, that Parliament lasted its full term. But if one or more of the independents had become seriously disillusioned with the ALP some time during the Parliament, they might have moved a Motion of No Confidence. If that vote were to be passed, the government would fall, and the GG would have asked the Leader of the Opposition to see if he could form a government. If not, we'd probably have ended up going to an early election.

The last time this happened in Australia was in 1941, when two independents held the balance of power in the House. Disillusioned with the performance of the then conservative government, the independents switched their support to the ALP, which then took over government. In a rare act of activism, the then GG leaned on the two independents, asking them to keep supporting the ALP government until the Parliamentary term was finished, to avoid the need for an early election in the middle of a war.

Changing Prime Ministers: This can happen two ways. The usual way (ahem!) is if the PM's party loses an election. In that case the now former PM becomes the Leader of the Opposition (or resigns the leadership, resigns from Parliament, writes memoirs which sell badly, and earns a heap of money on the high-level speaking circuit).

The second way the Prime Ministership can change is if the governing party decides to change leaders. Until only a few years ago, this could happen with either major party simply by a majority vote of Parliamentary members of that party. The first time that happened in Australia was in 1992 when ALP PM Bob Hawke was dumped by his party and replaced by his former Treasurer, Paul Keating. (Liberal Party PM John Gorton was replaced by his Treasurer Billy McMahon in 1971, but in that case the party room vote was tied and Gorton decided instead to resign rather than continue to lead a party which was obviously so divided.)

This method has since been used by the ALP twice and the Liberal Party once, all in the last six years, which is why the PM's office in Parliament House now seems to have a revolving door fitted to it. In 2010 ALP PM Kevin Rudd was dumped in favour of Julia Gillard. Then, in 2013 Gillard was in turn dumped to allow for the return of Kevin Rudd. Then, after winning the 2013 election, the Liberal Party in 2015 dumped PM Tony Abbott in favour of Malcolm Turnbull. It's perhaps not surprising that some people have looked back nostalgically to the Prime Ministership of John Howard, who led Australia unchallenged from 1996 to 2007. However, after Kevin Rudd regained power in 2013, he arranged for the ALP to change its rules so that the party leadership had to be voted on by ordinary party members as well as the Members and Senators, so at least for the ALP party leadership has become a more stable position.

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I know that although we both have two houses in the legislature, our "higher" house is elected and yours isn't. Our system seems structured to perpetuate two dominant political parties because of a "prisoner's dilemma" type situation discouraging votes for third parties; in your system, multiple parties and coalitions seem common.

Upper House: Yes, members of the House of Lords (and also the Canadian Senate) are appointed. However, as mentioned earlier, in Australia we elect our Senators - 12 for each state and 2 for each territory, for a total of 76. Senators are elected using a form of proportional representation which is tricky to explain and takes even longer to resolve. We've been told it may take a month to work out who's won Senate seats out of this election.

Incidentally, the electoral process for Senators in Australia is that they normally serve two Parliamentary terms, so in a normal election only half of them are up for election (well, half the Senators representing states - territory Senators face voters every election). However, if the Senate votes down a House bill three times, the PM can apply to the GG for a Double Dissolution election, in which all Senators are up for election. That's what happened at our election last weekend. Then, when the new Senate meets for the first time, they have to work out which of them get the six year terms and which the three year terms. As there aren't any laws governing this, and as the government is going to have to work with a hostile Senate, it'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

Two dominant parties: While the USA is dominated by two political parties, so is the UK, and, for that matter, so is Australia. In the case of the UK the dominant parties are the Conservative Party and the Labour Party. The Liberal-Democrats were important only after the 2010 election because they happened to hold the balance of power in the House of Commons, and thus were able to choose which out of the Conservatives and Labour to back. Most of the time one party has a comfortable majority in the House.

It's the same in Australia, where from 1943 to 2010 either the ALP or its conservative opponents held a majority in the House of Reps (although from 1961 to 1963 that majority was 1).

The reason both the American and Parliamentary systems have tended towards two-party systems is simply a consequence of having single-member electorates. By contrast, in legislatures where politicians are elected by some form of proportional representation then a wider array of parties are represented. This is shown in Australia by the Senate, in which in the last 36 years the government of the day has held a Senate majority for only a single three year term. Likewise, here in the Australian Capital Territory, where our Assembly is elected by a form of proportional representation, we've had one term of majority government in a total of eight Assemblies.

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In our system, impeachment is just one element of what seems to be a much more explicit separation of powers and "checks and balances" between branches of government. And of course we have all this in a written constitution that everyone at least claims to hold in very high regard, and which is formally interpreted by a separate branch of government, the judiciary, using a system of common law that we inherited from you guys.

True. Separation of the powers is provided for in the Westminster system, but I think it's less explicit than in the American Constitution, particularly given that the Executive is effectively part of the Legislature. But I'm not confident about this aspect of our form of government, so I'm not going to comment too much about it.

However, I can say with certainty that the Judiciary is independent of the Legislature and Executive, and one of the jobs of the High Court of Australia (~ the US Supreme Court) is interpretation of the Constitution. Still, having said that, yes, High Court judges are appointed by the GG on the advice of the PM, and they aren't subject to acceptance hearings. Despite that, appointment of High Court judges seems to attract a lot less heat and light than it does in the USA.

Yet one weakness of the Australian Constitution is that the checks and balances are a little more wobbly than in the American Constitution. For example, the Queen appoints the GG on the advice of the PM, while the GG appoints the leader of the largest party to be PM. Thus, effectively, the PM and GG appoint each other; they also have the power to dismiss each other. This nearly became an issue in 1975 when the then GG Sir John Kerr sacked the PM Gough Whitlam over Whitlam's inability to get a hostile Senate to pass his Budget. Without going into details, Kerr gave Whitlam no indication of his thinking, called him to his office and told him he'd been dismissed. The reason Kerr gave Whitlam no warning was his fear that Whitlam would then call the Queen and advise her to dismiss Kerr, advice the Queen was required by convention to follow.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2016, 12:14:19 PM »
Okay, so here’s a brief history of Australian Parliaments over the last 20 years to show how things have changed. The two major parties in Australian politics are the Australian Labor Party (ALP) which is left of centre, and the Coalition of the Liberal and National Parties (LNP) which are right of centre. Minor parties have historically included the Australian Democrats (centrist) and the Greens (left of the ALP).

1996: John Howard leads the LNP to victory after 13 years of ALP rule. The LNP have a majority in the House, but are one short of a majority in the Senate. While the ADs and other independents have the balance of power, the LNP soon gets access to an alternative extra vote thanks to an ALP Senator resigning from the party and continuing to sit as an independent.

1998: Howard calls an early election and wins a second term, campaigning in the election on the introduction of a Goods and Services Tax. The ALP gains a higher percentage of the vote, but the LNP manages to retain a majority of seats in the House. The GST legislation is passed through the Senate with the assistance of the ADs. This decision by the ADs fatally weakens their support in the community.

2001: Howard wins a third term in an election held only a couple of months after the 9/11 attacks, but again fails to win a majority in the Senate. The ALP ditches leader Kim Beazley (former minister and son of a former minister) and replaces him with Simon Crean (former minister and son of a former minister). After a lacklustre performance by Crean, he’s in turn replaced by Mark Latham (neither a former minister or son of a former minister.

2004: Howard wins a fourth term, as Latham’s fiery rhetoric scares many minor party voters back to the LNP. This time Howard ekes out a one vote majority in the Senate. Latham resigns, to be replaced by Beazley again. However he’s then dumped in turn by Kevin Rudd, one of the ALP's new generation of politicians. With control of both Houses, the LNP makes changes to industrial relations laws which prove to be unpopular. Liberal Party deputy leader Peter Costello reveals that Howard had promised to resign and nominate Costello as his successor but had then gone back on his promise. Costello dithers over whether to challenge Howard for leadership of the Liberals (and thus the office of PM) and in the end decides against it.

2007: The ALP under Rudd’s leadership wins the election, gaining a majority in the House, but not in the Senate; the ALP will need the votes of either Greens, independents or (unlikely) the LNP to pass legislation. Howard loses his own seat in the House, leaving the party leadership to Brendan Nelson. Rudd, who seems to thrive on crisis, keeps Australia out of recession during the GFC, but he then seems to enjoy maintaining the atmosphere of crisis. The LNP now cycles through leaders, ditching Brendan Nelson for Malcolm Turnbull, and then replacing him with Tony Abbott. Abbott successfully challenges Rudd’s popularity in the polls. With private polling suggesting the ALP might lose government if Rudd stays as PM, the ALP decides to replace Rudd as party leader (and therefore PM) with Julia Gillard. Gillard opts to call an early election.

2010: The election is incredibly close. Neither the ALP or LNP has a majority, but Gillard is able to gain enough support from independents to form government with a majority of one (I described these events on an earlier version of this forum at http://apollohoax.proboards.com/thread/2926/story-australias-2010-federal-election). Likewise, in the Senate the ALP requires support from both Greens and some independents to pass legislation. Gillard’s government passes a lot of good legislation, but, constantly challenged in Parliament by Abbott and white-anted by Rudd, her authority is steadily eroded. By the start of 2013 defeat for the ALP in the next election seems a certainty. Finally, in mid-2013 Rudd challenges Gillard for the leadership of the ALP (and thus the office of PM) and retakes his old position. One of his first actions is to change ALP party rules to make it harder for the party leader to be replaced. The ALP then loses the election, although Rudd claims his efforts minimised the size of the loss (conveniently ignoring the fact that the ALP got into that position partly as a result of his own actions).

2013: Abbott leads the LNP to a solid victory, although once again the cross-benchers hold the balance of power in the Senate. However this time the Senate includes a couple of Senators elected despite tiny primary votes, thanks to manipulation of the Senate voting laws. Abbott’s popularity soon plummets thanks to a series of gaffes by him and his ministers. One of these gaffes is Abbott’s inability to negotiate with the Senate cross-benchers with any skill, something Gillard managed quite well. In February 2015 the Liberal Party votes on a “spill motion” (whether the position of party leader should be vacated). The motion is defeated, but Abbott is shaken by the fact the motion is supported by a third of Liberal Party MPs and Senators even though no one was actually challenging him. Still, the gaffes continue, and as speculation mounts that Abbott could well lead the LNP to defeat at the next election, in September 2015 Malcolm Turnbull successfully challenges Abbott for the leadership of the Liberal Party (and thus the office of PM). Turnbull pushes through legislation to change Senate voting laws making it harder for parties to manipulate the Senate voting system. The laws are passed with the support of the Greens. Turnbull calls an election…

Turnbull has been cruelled by a couple of factors. For one thing both major parties have steadily lost support to minor parties and independents over the last four decades. As the challenges of the modern world increase, more people have become dissatisfied with the policies proposed by the major parties. This is not to say the minors and independents have any better solutions, rather that people are simply looking anywhere for solutions. Hence the wild array of minor and micro-parties.

But Turnbull had his own issues. Australia is currently running a large deficit, and the year when we’ll return to surplus has been steadily pushed back into the future. But Turnbull’s solutions to the problem always came across as half-hearted suggestions, which were then promptly shot down by some interest group or other. Finally, when the government’s Budget for 2016 contained some measures to rein in some of the tax benefits available to wealthy people, these people – mostly supporters of the government – started complaining loudly, distracting the government from selling its budget to the community as a whole.

Finally, there was what appears to have been a major tactical blunder. As I mentioned earlier, our election last weekend was a Double Dissolution election. The things is that after a DD election, if the PM's party wins, they can hold a Joint Sitting of the two Houses to vote on the previously rejected legislation; on current seat counts that's not going to work.

The question is why Turnbull called the DD election. As I mentioned earlier, the government had managed to have legislation passed which made it harder for parties to manipulate the voting system. This way, candidates elected would better reflect the preferences of voters. The 2013 Senate had included a large and diverse cross-bench of Greens and micro-parties, and the voting reform legislation was designed to reduce the number and diversity of the cross-bench Senators.

Now, Senators are elected by a form of proportional representation: in order to be elected a Senator needs a quota of votes. A quota is calculated by dividing the number of voters in a state by one more than the number of Senators up for election. Therefore, in a normal election where six Senators are being elected, a quota is one-seventh of the votes available in the state; that’s about 14% of the vote. However in a DD election where twelve Senators are being elected, a quota is one-thirteenth of the votes available in the state; that’s a little under 8% of the vote. So by calling a DD election, Turnbull made it substantially easier for micro-parties and independents to win seats. The result is that the 2016 Senate is likely to include a cross-bench as numerous and diverse as the 2013 Senate.

The best explanation is that Turnbull couldn't wait. A normal half-Senate election, which would likely have delivered a more tractable Senate, couldn't be held until September. But by March the LNP was falling behind in the polls, and by September it might have been too late to recover - Turnbull had to call the election as soon as he could before the polls got too bad, and the only available means was via a Double Dissolution. And as a result he's landed himself with a Senate which is going to be even harder to work with.

So the Parliaments of 2007 and 2010 have been eerily repeated in 2013 and 2016, just on the opposite side of politics – a party with a comfortable majority gets spooked by the polls and replaces a first term PM, only for the replacement PM to stumble badly at the subsequent election. It remains to be seen how the Parliament of 2016 will play out…
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Offline Glom

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2016, 12:44:06 PM »
The thing about the Westminster system is that it seeks to bring structure to that which has evolved haphazardly over time in its namesake.

Our system was borne out of the tussle for power between Crown and Parliament, which began when the Crown was first made to acknowledge the rights of (rich) men in Magna Carta.  This reached a crescendo when the fight became a literal fight in the English Civil War in the 17th century, which resulted in the King being executed.  The resulting military dictatorship was not sustainable so the heir to the throne was summoned from his exile to his rightful place after a couple of decades.  However, the Restoration was the beginning of the modern constitutional monarchy, which holds that the Monarch must be bound by constitutional convention.

With the passing of the House of Stuart at the beginning of the 18th century (and shortly after the Union that formed Great Britain), the House of Hanover began with a monarch who couldn't speak English.  Naturally, this led to a greater role for Parliament in carrying out the duties of the Executive, but bound by the implicit reality that executive power was ultimately the monarch's, Anglophone or not.  It's an interesting dynamic.  The head of state has power but doesn't wield it, while the Prime Minister wields power but doesn't have it.  This is a separation of powers in a way.  No one individual is the ultimate power in the country.  Instead we have an almost Roman dual leadership.

And from there, we have the system we have today.  The Constitutions of the Commonwealth Realms codify these practices into a democratic system, but really, they're just the result of Parliament running scared of both Catholics and demagogues.

Offline Peter B

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2016, 10:26:45 AM »
Yep. Nice summary.

The thing is, the system which had evolved up to the late 18th century obviously wasn't good enough for the American colonists. They then proceeded to set up a system designed to stop the possibility of tyranny of the sort they perceived in the UK, and in the process have created a system which can be gridlocked by individuals thanks to the filibuster, and yet which has still been subverted from time to time anyway (if you read, for example, the outraged responses of plenty of politicians and commentators to Lincoln's actions during the Civil War).

There's a lot to admire about the American system of government, but it could also benefit from a lot of tweaks which seem unlikely in the hyper-confrontational attitude which appears to apply at the moment.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2016, 10:40:00 AM »
Incidentally, we now know half the result of our election: Malcolm Turnbull's LNP has been returned to power with a razor think majority in the House of Representatives. Counting in the Senate continues, but it already seems guaranteed that the results will include the largest cross-bench since Federation.

This means passing legislation is going to take a lot of fancy footwork as the PM will need to cobble together a Senate majority for every new piece of legislation, or get the ALP on side. At first glance that last option seems implausible, but it may happen. For example back in the 1980s a lot of economic reforms implemented by the ALP government of Bob Hawke were actually supported by Opposition Leader John Howard (he'd even tried and failed a few years earlier as Treasurer to Malcolm Fraser to have some of those reforms introduced). Such negotiations always seemed beyond Tony Abbott's abilities when he was PM, and in theory Turnbull's business background should give him a better grounding. However, the standout in this regard seems to have been Julia Gillard, the ALP PM from 2010 to 2013, who seems to have had a deft touch when it came to convincing Senators to support her legislative program.

The thing is that Australia faces some serious economic readjustment of the sort we went through in the 1980s, and we already have a population which is jaded and wary of change. The two questions are whether the LNP is game enough to propose some of those changes and whether the ALP is game enough to support them. The thing is, these sorts of reforms are necessary for the future prosperity of the country, but they require a lot of political courage to implement. The danger is that just when a great deal of political maturity is required from our politicians, we have a Parliament so chaotic that it may be hard for Bill Shorten and the ALP to resist the temptation to play politics just for the sake of a few good headlines.
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Offline Glom

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2016, 12:22:39 PM »
And within 48 hours, we will have a new PM. The kissing of hands is scheduled to take place on Wednesday afternoon. And it'll be a woman. But she doesn't have a Willy. The last woman prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, said every PM needs a Willy. She was of course referring to her deputy leader, Willy Whitelaw.

Offline BazBear

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2016, 10:33:42 AM »
And within 48 hours, we will have a new PM. The kissing of hands is scheduled to take place on Wednesday afternoon. And it'll be a woman. But she doesn't have a Willy. The last woman prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, said every PM needs a Willy. She was of course referring to her deputy leader, Willy Whitelaw.
What happened to his plan to wait until Oct. to step down?
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Offline Glom

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Re: For ka9q - Parliamentary democracy
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2016, 05:13:41 PM »
And within 48 hours, we will have a new PM. The kissing of hands is scheduled to take place on Wednesday afternoon. And it'll be a woman. But she doesn't have a Willy. The last woman prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, said every PM needs a Willy. She was of course referring to her deputy leader, Willy Whitelaw.
What happened to his plan to wait until Oct. to step down?
That was predicated on the party leadership contest continuing for two months. As it happened, one of the finalists dropped out so the members' vote stage be became redundant and Theresa May was declared winner by default.