Author Topic: Perception  (Read 32075 times)

Offline Chew

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Re: Perception
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2012, 08:59:03 AM »
That was a really good explanation. When I've tried to describe it I use an analogy of a great circle: the shortest distance between two points on the surface of a sphere is a great circle, now translate that up to the sky.

Over at the ATS forum there is a 40 page debate about the wet moon and dry moon.

Offline Sus_pilot

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Perception
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2012, 09:28:06 AM »
Even further offtopic..)
...effects as wide-ranging as the Moon-tilt 'illusion'...
Haven't heard of that one, but I do know about the "gigantic" full moon as it rises behind a hill or distant trees.
It's my personal favorite..  Pick a time when both Moon and Sun are in the sky but are a reasonable distance apart,  around sunrise or sunset. Look at the angle from which the Moon is illuminated and mentally draw a straight line back to where the Sun *should* be...  It misses by a significant margin!  (which to some tinfoilhatters is proof that the sky/sun/moon is a hologram..  It's really quite a weird effect if you've never seen it before.

The reason for the 'illusion' (it isn't really an illusion at all) is simple perspective distortion - the same thing you get when standing near and beneath that long straight wall or standing on railway lines, the same thing that causes (anti-) crepuscular rays to fan out from the sun overhead and yet re-converge at the vanishing point on the opposite horizon.  Apart from those that run along the horizon and those directly overhead, those rays *cannot* be straight lines *from our viewpoint* - after all, they go from the two vanishing points spread by 180 degrees, but then fan outwards up to 45 degrees as they go over your head - no straight line could do that... :P

But yes, of course the light rays do follow a straight line in 3d reality - it is the projection of that straight line on our 'spherical' - yet 2d - viewpoint that causes the curve (and it's a real curve..).  I've probably described that badly, but it's hard to express in words..

Interestingly, the effect vanishes ('shifts' is a better word) if you alter your 'horizon' to match any curved ray, but by doing so, the actual horizon now becomes bent...  The fascinating thing is that because we *always* perceive the horizon as level and straight, your brain doesn't like doing that and will do its best not to let you perceive the curve.

A really short lens (fisheye) will demonstrate that well:  keep the horizon level, and every other horizontal line curves; select another reference, and the horizon curves.  Of course, with that type of lens, there is deliberate barrel distortion in the entire image.  Also, go to www.widescreenmuseum.com and look at any of the Cinerama images where the camera was panned up or down and the horizon is visible - because the image is on a flat plane (your monitor), and not a curved screen, you'll see a bent horizon.

If you think about it, every lens that images anything less that 180 degrees is really magnifying the center of that fisheye image, so the curves become less and less apparent. What lens makers work so hard at is managing edge distortion by keeping a straight line straight while maintaining focus to the edges of the frame.  Poorly made lenses will exhibit either pin-cushion or barrel distortion.  Actually, a well made lens has deliberate distortion to satisfy our perception of reality.

If you want to prove this to yourself, take a camera outside and shoot a 180 x 180 panorama using a normal lens (35 mm for most modern digital SLR,'s), and try to stitch the images together, without using a photo-stich software.  You will find that there will be discontinuities at the edges of the images where the lens maker kept the lines straight (and now you know why you pick joining references in that software - they force a fix).



It's the inverse of the problem of matching aeronautical or nautical charts at the edges because the lines of latitude and longitude were kept straight.

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: Perception
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2012, 12:26:39 PM »
If you think about it, every lens that images anything less that 180 degrees is really magnifying the center of that fisheye image, so the curves become less and less apparent. What lens makers work so hard at is managing edge distortion by keeping a straight line straight while maintaining focus to the edges of the frame.  Poorly made lenses will exhibit either pin-cushion or barrel distortion.  Actually, a well made lens has deliberate distortion to satisfy our perception of reality.

There are actually several different types of projections that are possible. Fisheye lenses are generally a spherical projection that preserves solid angles...the image area an object occupies doesn't vary with its location on the image plane. Straight lines not passing through the axis project to curved lines, and distortion of shape becomes extreme towards the edges of the image. Real fisheye lenses often modify this for aesthetic reasons.

"Standard" rectilinear lenses are not just a fraction of a fisheye projection, they instead attempt to approximate a pinhole camera: straight lines in the scene project to straight lines on the image plane, but angular sizes are not constant along the image plane, spheres become distorted toward the edges, and it's geometrically impossible to have a view angle greater than 90 degrees from the camera axis (and in practice, extremely difficult to get very close to that).

Human vision is neither. Our view of our surroundings isn't an impression of light on a 2D image plane, it's a composite representation of a 3D scene cobbled together in our brain from two constantly moving eyes attached to an also-mobile head. Overall, there's a similarity to spherical projection, except without any conscious perception of distortion of straight lines.

Offline Sus_pilot

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Perception
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2012, 01:42:46 PM »
If you think about it, every lens that images anything less that 180 degrees is really magnifying the center of that fisheye image, so the curves become less and less apparent. What lens makers work so hard at is managing edge distortion by keeping a straight line straight while maintaining focus to the edges of the frame.  Poorly made lenses will exhibit either pin-cushion or barrel distortion.  Actually, a well made lens has deliberate distortion to satisfy our perception of reality.

There are actually several different types of projections that are possible. Fisheye lenses are generally a spherical projection that preserves solid angles...the image area an object occupies doesn't vary with its location on the image plane. Straight lines not passing through the axis project to curved lines, and distortion of shape becomes extreme towards the edges of the image. Real fisheye lenses often modify this for aesthetic reasons.

"Standard" rectilinear lenses are not just a fraction of a fisheye projection, they instead attempt to approximate a pinhole camera: straight lines in the scene project to straight lines on the image plane, but angular sizes are not constant along the image plane, spheres become distorted toward the edges, and it's geometrically impossible to have a view angle greater than 90 degrees from the camera axis (and in practice, extremely difficult to get very close to that).

Human vision is neither. Our view of our surroundings isn't an impression of light on a 2D image plane, it's a composite representation of a 3D scene cobbled together in our brain from two constantly moving eyes attached to an also-mobile head. Overall, there's a similarity to spherical projection, except without any conscious perception of distortion of straight lines.

No disagreement. I was just trying, in a simple fashion, to point out that anything less than a 180 view is section of the visible field., that's all.

Offline ChrLz

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Re: Perception
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2012, 06:09:30 PM »
That was a really good explanation. When I've tried to describe it I use an analogy of a great circle: the shortest distance between two points on the surface of a sphere is a great circle, now translate that up to the sky.

Over at the ATS forum there is a 40 page debate about the wet moon and dry moon.
I haven't seen the ATS thread, and probably don't want to.. :P  I think where the great circle explanation fails to get through is that the reader thinks the distortion is happening up in the sky.. when in reality the 'great circle' is in this case your curved retina and brain trying to perceive a straight line that:
- covers a very wide angle compared to our normal* f-o-v of say 20-40 degrees
- is neither directly above or to the side of the viewer's angle of view

Both of these factors are unusual for us..

* - I mean normal for perceiving/measuring straight lines or segments thereof..

Offline Obviousman

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Re: Perception
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2012, 01:59:13 AM »
When I've tried to describe it I use an analogy of a great circle: the shortest distance between two points on the surface of a sphere is a great circle, now translate that up to the sky.

It's counter-intuitive. People sometimes have a hard time believing that a Great Circle route is shorter... but it means constantly adjusting your course. A rhumb line maintains a constant heading but is longer.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Perception
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2012, 08:39:21 PM »
It's counter-intuitive. People sometimes have a hard time believing that a Great Circle route is shorter... but it means constantly adjusting your course. A rhumb line maintains a constant heading but is longer.
A rubber band and a globe should be handy teaching tools.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Perception
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2012, 08:40:00 PM »
Human vision is neither. Our view of our surroundings isn't an impression of light on a 2D image plane, it's a composite representation of a 3D scene cobbled together in our brain from two constantly moving eyes attached to an also-mobile head.
A perfect description of what I was trying to say earlier.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Perception
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2012, 10:45:28 PM »
Part of the issue is that artists "correct" what they "see" to match their perceptions, rectifying the primary object to be "square". Thus, we've been trained that this is how the world should be.  Hence, view cameras where the focal plane is set parallel to the object to be photographed, squaring it up, because that's the most pleasing.

The difficulty is that there is no single objective reality.  It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. An object that fills a frame with a long lens looks remarkably different than an image of the same thing taken with a long lens (Hitchcock and his cinematographer used this to remarkable effect in Vertigo by trucking the camera and changing the focal length of a zoom lens at the same time, keeping Jimmy Stewart the same size in the frame).

As I said, it depends what you're trying to accomplish.  Just remember, never take a tight close-up of someone with a short lens if you want to stay friends...

Well, to be more pedantic, visual artists developed "linear perspective" as a tool to create scenes with some illusion of depth.  The methods are simple to learn and the look is codified, in large part because for moderate fields of view it "feels right" to the eye.  Aka the closer you get to the center of the image, the closer the match is between the point focus of the human eye and the various approximations of artistic perspective.

Even then, many artists cheat it a little.  Manga artists in particular have a couple of specific ways they juggle the mechanical perspective on objects that are close to frame edge/filling the frame (I'd look up the name of the one I know about but that would take about ten minutes of digging through reference books).

And when you really want to get crazy, you break out curvilinear perspective.  Which can be a bear to plot out, is unusual enough to be exciting to look at, but is perhaps a little too much to use on every panel.  Comic books and manga, in particular, are often about the clean, simple look, and the straight lines of linear perspective support that.  Extreme case being funnies, where everything is flattened to the camera and depth is indicated only with depth planes.

I do know at least one web comic which is drawn almost entirely in curvilinear perspective, though, and once you tune in to the style it is quite comfortable to read.


Offline Grashtel

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Re: Perception
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2012, 12:26:47 AM »
I do know at least one web comic which is drawn almost entirely in curvilinear perspective, though, and once you tune in to the style it is quite comfortable to read.
Linkage please? I'm curious to see it and could always use another webcomic to add to my list
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Offline nomuse

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Re: Perception
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2012, 04:39:10 PM »
Might take a while.  I archive-binged it, then realized what their update schedule was, and basically lost the link. 

Or I'm confabulating, and the comic I'm actually remembering is Winter Melody.  Which is worth a look anyhow.   But I was so sure the one I was thinking of was in full color.....