King Richard III and the Princes in the Tower

[Tedward]

...Edit. spilling, new spill chack all over the plice.

Now you're sounding like a script for Crabtree from "'Allo 'Allo"! :-)

(he appears around the 25 second mark)

Ha! Should be required viewing in all parts of the world.

New mac and the spell check is great but works slightly differently to my old mac (older would not run the new software) however I do not check the spell checker, well, more aware no seeing as there is another typo in my earlier post.

Ho hum.

[Tedward]

Anyway, unable to edit this in the post earlier.
I said
"And a loverly Tiptoft, certainly the one to book if it were a panto, who needs day time soap oopera's."

Should say
"And a loverly Tiptoft, certainly the one to boo if it were a panto, who needs day time soap opera's."

Not sure if panto is a thing across the pond but the audience will always boo the baddy.


But, at the end of Alison Wiers book (audio) and that was a roller coaster ride of emotions for all involved, especially the ones that got it in the neck (and other bits). What does appear to be apparant is the wearyness felt towards the factions warring all the time towards the end. The book does not go past Edward IV, though I have 11 minutes left. Henry VI certainly came across as a relectant king and a sorry figure in history perhaps more suited to a rose garden and a cottage out of peoples way whilst his wife was a right harridan (from the tone of this book please not, still learning). Edit. Just thought, a Hyacinth Bucket with power.......

Either way, if Gloucester was there at the end of Henry, then later deeds can be seen to be possible, indeed his path to the crown has a few options with the Princess, one the the evil deed and othe other in his name but not knowingly by him. But also there are other options that would be apparnt I think and this is leading me down the next chapter, again.

Need a few more books on this, getting hooked on this chapter.

[gillianren]

We do not have panto, though those of us who watch a lot of British television at least know what it is.

[Tedward]

Oh no you don't.....

[twik]

I really need to sit down and watch that whole series.  (Graham bought it for me for my birthday a couple of years ago, largely because I wanted the special features.)  But one thing bothers me about most recent adaptations of that particular era in history--how hard is it to get a redhead as Henry?

Heck, how hard is it to get a bottle of hair dye?

[Peter B]

I've just seen an interesting two-episode show called "The Real White Queen" or something like that. It was about three influential women from the time of the Wars of the Roses: Elizabeth Woodville, Anne Neville and Margaret Beaufort. Woodville was the young widow who stole the heart of King Edward IV, marrying him and providing him with something like eight children. Beaufort was the mother of the future King Henry VII (I didn't realise she gave birth to him at the age of 13!). Neville was the daughter of the Richard Neville Earl of Warwick, one of the most powerful nobles in England, and the man who became known as the Kingmaker.

Anne Neville married Richard of Gloucester and so became his queen when he seized the throne in 1483.

But the interesting point one of the presenters made was that when Richard travelled down to London in early 1483 after the death of King Edward IV, Anne remained in York. Secondly, her accounts show no special expenditure of money for the purchase or manufacture of clothing. The implication to the presenter was that Anne knew that there wouldn't be a coronation of young King Edward V. After all, as the wife of the highest ranking man in the kingdom it was inconceivable that she wouldn't attend the coronation, and as the coronation of King Edward V was fixed for a time not long after his arrival in London she could hardly wait too long in York.

The conclusion that the presenter reaches is that Anne Neville was very much her father's daughter. That is, she was almost certainly fully aware of Richard's plans to seize the throne, and may even have been been involved in the plot.

A second point the program made was the suggestion that Margaret Beaufort had access to the Princes in the Tower, courtesy of her marriage to Thomas, Lord Stanley (one of the Stanleys who would later betray King Richard III at the Battle of Bosworth), and thus may have been responsible for the deaths of the Princes in the Tower. Alison Weir, however, claims that people would only have had access to the Princes on the authority of King Richard III.

[Tedward]

I must confess I side stepped this tale in a quandary. I listen to a lot of audio books and needed a book for a long drive and not seeing anything on this subject immediately to hand, fell back to Patrick O'Brian's books and been a bit hooked on the series,  Master and Commander.

But the devil is in the detail in a lot of these I find. The accounts and all they contain are a gold mine for information. That is cloth bought, servants paid, services bought etc etc.

[Peter B]

I must confess I side stepped this tale in a quandary. I listen to a lot of audio books and needed a book for a long drive and not seeing anything on this subject immediately to hand, fell back to Patrick O'Brian's books and been a bit hooked on the series,  Master and Commander.

But the devil is in the detail in a lot of these I find. The accounts and all they contain are a gold mine for information. That is cloth bought, servants paid, services bought etc etc.

Absolutely right. History may be made by the Important People, but the actions of ordinary people can often be significant in helping determine what happened.

Also, there's the issue of historians (or researchers in general) being clever enough to understand the importance of the negative evidence - what's not there that should be.

[Tedward]

The annoying thing I found with Alison Weirs book that I read relates to this. Something would be priced at £4 4s and 6d for example. She would convert that to the decimal equivalent.

I must admit that it has been some years since I dabbled in pre decimal so not sure if that example is correct (I was young and really grew up with decimal).

However, back to the example, the conversion to decimal would be for the year that a payment was made, so it would be £4 and whatever pence that would amount to. I would have prefered a conversion to todays costs or some scale as to the incomes etc and it is put into perspective. And as it is an audio book, I cannot annotate the margins.

Minor gripe I know.

[Peter B]

I understand your point and agree to a point. A comparison to salaries might be possible - perhaps a duchess's dress would cost what a maid earned in X months or years.

But a straight inflation of prices from the 15th century to now is next to impossible. I tried it with my great-grandfather's memoirs and came up with some odd results even over 150 years, let alone 500.

For example, he bought a second-hand book for two shillings and sixpence (having talked the pawnbroker down from 5 shillings), which was his entire first month's pay as a 14 year old provided with all meals and accommodation. I doubt there are many places where what a 14 year old could earn in a month would be half the price of a second hand book. However, as the book was "Nories' Epitome of Navigation" it may equate to the purchase these days of a second-hand laptop complete with internet access and a subscription to an online nautical navigation course.

Part of the problem is that the cost of a thing changes over time as it becomes either more available or easier to make with new technology. For example, back in 1992 I flew Sydney-London return for $1650. These days you can buy the same ticket for under $1400.

[Tedward]

It would be nice if there were a yard stick, I realise it cannot be completely on par.

[gwiz]

For example, he bought a second-hand book for two shillings and sixpence (having talked the pawnbroker down from 5 shillings), which was his entire first month's pay as a 14 year old provided with all meals and accommodation. I doubt there are many places where what a 14 year old could earn in a month would be half the price of a second hand book.

Between school and college, I did a couple of months on the shopfloor of a factory, for which I received £5 a week.  In those days, that would not have paid for a copy of "Jane's All the Worlds Aircraft".  Book prices have come down relative to wages, but even today specialist hardbacks can cost hundreds of pounds.

Ed to add: Just checked, today's Jane's is £705, a 40-hour week on minimum wage is £260.

[Echnaton]

Ed to add: Just checked, today's Jane's is £705, a 40-hour week on minimum wage is £260.

That may be the rack rate, but it is listed on Amazon as new for $170 or £102.

[gwiz]

That may be the rack rate, but it is listed on Amazon as new for $170 or £102.

That edition is two years old, the new edition is $1870 on that site.

[Tedward]

Pondering this so had a shufty on the web.
http://projects.exeter.ac.uk/RDavies/arian/current/howmuch.html

There are links to the author to see where this has come from but interesting and a link to the National Archives (UK, a source of some fascinating info in general)

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency/

I realise it is an interesting exercise rather than a definitive conversion.

The bio of the chap who's name is on this site is interesting.