What Neil saw...

[bknight]

Wouldn't dust on the mirror have shown up in photographs taken by the camera if it had been placed there by Surveyor's own landing?

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/surveyorfoot.gif
http://www.planetary.org/multimedia/space-images/earth/first-image-of-earth-from-surveyor-3.html
http://www.ssplprints.com/image/87596/nasa-picture-of-the-earth-from-the-moon-taken-by-surveyor-3-1967
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1971LPSC....2.2735C  Reference page 2735
"The Abnormal landing of Surveyor III had resulted in veiling glare and substantial loss of contrast in pictures taken during the spacecraft operation, presumably due to dust on part of the mirror.
The study while not 100% pointing to dust on the mirror suggested that may have been the case.  Look at the couple of images before the Harvard article, seems to me that the images are not clear.

[ka9q]

Well, that could certainly do it!

[mako88sb]

As I said, it was 2 in the morning, I was at the computer working on something because I couldn't sleep, and I hear what I would have sworn was Neil Armstrong's voice mentioning something about some light on the horizon. The TV was way down so it wouldn't wake my wife up, but I really thought I heard something. By the time I could get up and get a remote, the program ended, and I never did find out what it was.

I'm now pretty much convinced I don't know what to make of it.

Was there, or was there not something that was "luminous" mentioned on 11, from the surface, either during the EVA or shortly after? I've read through the transcript, and I remember a mention of a light near Aristarchus, but that was Collins from Columbia talking about soil or ejecta or some reflection (I haven't memorize the thing, and its been a few days since I skimmed through it.)

At this point, I'm absolutely not sure what I remember hearing. I'd make a lousy eyewitness.

I read Donald Beattie's "Taking Science to the Moon" a few weeks ago and remember this topic being brought up in regards to Aristarchus and according to the book, it was Neil who described what "he thought was fluorescence in that region". You can see the rest of the discussion over at Amazon with the look inside feature for the book on page 261:

 http://www.amazon.com/Taking-Science-Moon-Experiments-Program-ebook/dp/B001SN762I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448309472&sr=8-1&keywords=taking+science+to+the+moon

Just a quick note that page 261 doesn't show up until you click on the "Surprise Me" just before page 275.

[Ishkabibble]

As I said, it was 2 in the morning, I was at the computer working on something because I couldn't sleep, and I hear what I would have sworn was Neil Armstrong's voice mentioning something about some light on the horizon. The TV was way down so it wouldn't wake my wife up, but I really thought I heard something. By the time I could get up and get a remote, the program ended, and I never did find out what it was.

I'm now pretty much convinced I don't know what to make of it.

Was there, or was there not something that was "luminous" mentioned on 11, from the surface, either during the EVA or shortly after? I've read through the transcript, and I remember a mention of a light near Aristarchus, but that was Collins from Columbia talking about soil or ejecta or some reflection (I haven't memorize the thing, and its been a few days since I skimmed through it.)

At this point, I'm absolutely not sure what I remember hearing. I'd make a lousy eyewitness.

I read Donald Beattie's "Taking Science to the Moon" a few weeks ago and remember this topic being brought up in regards to Aristarchus and according to the book, it was Neil who described what "he thought was fluorescence in that region". You can see the rest of the discussion over at Amazon with the look inside feature for the book on page 261:

 http://www.amazon.com/Taking-Science-Moon-Experiments-Program-ebook/dp/B001SN762I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448309472&sr=8-1&keywords=taking+science+to+the+moon

Just a quick note that page 261 doesn't show up until you click on the "Surprise Me" just before page 275.

I am so grateful that you posted this. I was beginning to think I had completely lost my mind.

Of course, now that I know something similar to what I thought I had been remembering did occur, the responses regarding Luna 15 not being a possible source for this are now much more significant to me.

Does anyone even know if the "flourescence" was even in the same general direction, or along the same lines of bearing as Luna 15's impact point, or could it have been some other impact that threw up a cloud of regolith that was backlit that caused it? I don't know why I have this bone in my teeth, but I do.

[Kiwi]

Was there, or was there not something that was "luminous" mentioned on 11, from the surface, either during the EVA or shortly after? I've read through the transcript, and I remember a mention of a light near Aristarchus, but that was Collins from Columbia talking about soil or ejecta or some reflection (I haven't memorize the thing, and its been a few days since I skimmed through it.)

The Apollo 11 astronauts' comments about transient lunar phenomena in the vicinity of Aristarchus occurred during the first lunar orbit following GET 76:57:07. The term TLP was apparently coined by UK astronomer Patrick Moore, and they had been seen as far back as 1892. Moore writes about them in his book "Guide to the Moon", Book Club Associates (1977) pages 89, 202-212 and 222-223.

You find the transcript at the Apollo 11 Flight Journal
http://history.nasa.gov/afj/
and here's how it was reported in "First on the Moon - A Voyage with Neil Armstrong, Michael Collins, Edwin E. Aldrin Jr", written with Gene Farmer and Dora Jane Hamblin, epilogue by Arthur C. Clarke.  Michael Joseph Ltd, London (1970), pages 195-197.

195>
Man looks aloft, and with erected eyes
Beholds his own hereditary skies.
OVID

As soon as we go to face up in the LM we'll get a
good view of the earth, but that won't be very helpful.
EDWIN E. ALDRIN JR.

[Chapter] 9

"See that ridge? That can be five hundred feet high!"

   It was only the first revolution, the first of twelve around the moon, before the command and service module was due to separate from the lunar module during the thirteenth pass, on the back side of the moon. But a big decision had been taken: it was go. The first lunar orbit insertion "burn," lasting about six minutes with a retrograde velocity change of about two thousand statute mph, had permitted the spacecraft — still combining the CSM and the LM — to be "captured" by lunar gravity. This maneuver took place about eighty nautical miles distant from the lunar surface and put the spacecraft into an elliptical orbit of 61 by 169 nautical miles. The command and service module's service and propulsion system engine still worked like a jewel. A second LOI burn would follow two revolutions later, to put the spacecraft into a more or less circular orbit sixty miles above the surface; the intent now was to go all the way. The landmarks were already being noted...

   ARMSTRONG: Currently going over Maskelyne... And Boot Hill, Duke Island, Sidewinder, looking at Maskelyne W — that's the yaw around checkpoint, and just coming into the terminator — at the terminator it's ashen gray. If you get further away from the terminator, it gets to be a lighter gray. and as you get closer to the subsolar point, you can definitely
<195

196>
see browns and tans on the ground, according to the last Apollo 11 observation anyway.
["the last Apollo limb observation" in the AFJ]
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Roger, eleven. We're recording your comments for posterity.
   ARMSTRONG: ...And the landing site is well into the dark here. I don't think we're going to be able to see anything of the landing site this early.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): We show you in flight plan staying in orbital rate until about 79 hours 10 minutes. Do you have some particular attitude or reason for wanting to go inertial? Over.
   ALDRIN: No, that's fine... until 79:10 then we'll breeze around here in orbit.
<GET 76:57:07>
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Roger. And we've got an observation you can make if you have some time up there. There have been some lunar transient events reported in the vicinity of [the crater] Aristarchus.
   ALDRIN: Roger. We just went into spacecraft darkness. Until then — why, we couldn't see a thing down below us, but now with earthshine the visibility is — oh, pretty fair. I'm looking back behind me now. I can see the corona from where the sun has just set, and we'll get out the map and see what we can find out around Aristarchus.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Okay, Aristarchus is angle Echo 9 on your ATO chart. It's about 394 miles north of track, however, at your present altitude, which is about 167 nautical miles. It ought to be over — that is, within view of your horizon, 23 degrees north, 47 west, and take a look and see if you see anything worth noting up there. Over.
   ARMSTRONG: Houston, eleven. It might help us a little bit if you could give us a time of crossing of 45 west... and then we'll know when to start searching for Aristarchus.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Roger, you'll be crossing 45 west at 77:04:10 or about forty seconds from now. Over. Thirty seconds from now.
   ALDRIN: Houston, when a star sets up here there's just no doubt about it. One instant it's there and the next instant it's just completely gone.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Roger, we copy.
   ALDRIN: Seems to me since we know orbits so precisely and know where the stars are so precisely and the time setting of a star or a planet to a very fine degree — that this might be a pretty good means of measuring the altitude of the horizon.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Roger.
   ARMSTRONG: Hey, Houston. I'm looking north up toward Aristarchus now, and I can't really tell at that distance whether I really am looking at Aristarchus, but there's an area there that is considerably more illuminated than the surrounding area. It just has — seems to have a slight amount of fluorescence to it.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Roger, eleven. We copy.
   ALDRIN: Looking out the same area now... well, at least there is one
<196


197>
wall of the crater that seems to be more illuminated than the others... I am not sure that I am really identifying any phosphorescence, but that definitely is lighter than anything else in the neighborhood.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Can you discern any difference in color of the illumination and is that an inner or an outer wall from the crater? Over.
   ALDRIN: I judge an inner wall in the crater.
   COLLINS: No, there doesn't appear to be any color involved in it, Bruce.
   [Twenty minutes to loss of signal...]
   COLLINS: Houston, Apollo 11. Could you give us a time of crossing the prime meridian 150 west? Over.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Roger. Stand by about a half second here. Okay, your time of crossing the 150 west meridian will be 77:50:05 [GET]. Over.
   [Six minutes to loss of signal...]
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Eleven, this is Houston. In order that we may configure our ground lines we'd like to know if you're still planning to have the TV up with the beginning of the next pass. Over.
   ARMSTRONG: Roger, Houston. We'll try to have it ready.
   HOUSTON (McCandless): Apollo 11, this is Houston. A little over two minutes to LOS. All your systems parameters and orbit are looking good from the ground. We have AOS [acquisition of signal] on the other side at 78:23:31. Over.
   Loss of signal... Around the comer and over the hill for the second time...

[ka9q]

I remember hearing about transient phenomena on the moon at the time, but nothing ever seemed to come of them. What was the consensus? Was this just overactive imaginations, or could at least some been impacts? I know that a number of definite impact fireballs have been seen on the moon with video cameras in recent years.

[Dalhousie]

I remember hearing about transient phenomena on the moon at the time, but nothing ever seemed to come of them. What was the consensus? Was this just overactive imaginations, or could at least some been impacts? I know that a number of definite impact fireballs have been seen on the moon with video cameras in recent years.

Or venting of gas from fissures.

[onebigmonkey]

I'm sure I read somewhere that flashes (as opposed to glowing light) had been put down to glints from surface material.

Ken Mattingly says this in the Apollo 16 debrief:

The other one was that little flash I saw. Maybe somebody saw it on one of those seismometers, on one of the early revs. It's on the DSE because I remember commenting out loud about it. I was sitting there waiting for a solar corona. I had
all the cockpit lights out sitting there in the dark . I could see a nice horizon against the corona . There was this bright flash, and it was below the horizon. I looked out the window every dark pass after that looking for another one. I never saw any more. I don't know whether I saw a meteorite hit, or what, but it was a bright flash. It was brighter than any star or planet that was above the horizon.

Cue UFO nuts in 3..2..

[Kiwi]

I remember hearing about transient phenomena on the moon at the time, but nothing ever seemed to come of them. What was the consensus? Was this just overactive imaginations, or could at least some been impacts? I know that a number of definite impact fireballs have been seen on the moon with video cameras in recent years.

No, not overactive imaginations. Some professional astronomers might have thought so in the first half of the 20th century, but Patrick Moore was on the side of the many amateurs who saw and reported TLP, even though he had not much luck seeing them himself.  Impacts often cause flashes, but not TLP, which can be a glow that lasts from a few seconds to hours and occasionally days.

Moore explains the history and conclusions well in his 1976-77 book, so I'll give the subject its own thread in this section:
http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=1027.msg35577#msg35577

[Ishkabibble]

Well, I was off today, as I don't have any classes on Wednesday, and I was deciding whether or not to take a nap. Decided to watch some TV, and flipped over to the Science Channel, to watch "How The Universe Works" and there was this neat program about the moon, theories on how it formed, tides, how it regulates seasons by preventing wobbling from changing the tilt of the earth, etc... and Nina Lanza (who is just about the cutest astronomer I have ever seen, right up there with Amy Mainzer) was talking about the geology of the moon. Lo and behold, the very audio clip that got me to start this thread was played. I was wide awake, paying attention, and heard plainly what was Neil's voice make this statement:

Hey, Houston. I'm looking north up toward Aristarchus now, and I can't really tell at that distance whether I am really looking at Aristarchus, but there's an area that is considerably more illuminated than the surrounding area. It just has - seems to have a slight amount of fluorescence to it. A crater can be seen, and the area around the crater is quite bright.

Now that I had a direct set of words to look for, I got up and searched through the transcript of the flight on ALSJ, I found the following:

03 05 12 51        CMP
 Hey, Houston. I'm looking north up toward Aristarchus now, and I can't really tell at that distance whether I am really looking at Aristarchus, but there's an area that is considerably more illuminated than the surrounding area. It just has - seems to have a slight amount of fluorescence to it. A crater can be seen, and the area around the crater is quite bright.

 03 05 13 30        CC
 Roger, 11. We copy.

 03 05 14 23        LMP
 Houston, Apollo 11. Looking up at the same area now and it does seem to be reflecting some of the earthshine. I'm not sure whether it was worked out to be about zero phase to - Well, at least there is one wall of the crater that seems to be more illuminated than the others, and that one - if we are lining up with the Earth correctly, does seem to put it about at zero phase. That area is definitely lighter than anything else that I could see out this window. I am not sure that I am really identifying any phosphorescence, but that definitely is lighter than anything else in the neighborhood.

 Now, I'm reasonably sure that this can't be anything connected to Luna 15, but given the context of the segment of the program I was watching, the commentary from the scientists now makes things much clearer. They were likely seeing some sort of volcanic activity, whether it be an outgassing plume, lighter-colored ejecta with high reflectivity, or some other transient phenomenon.

Just wanted to put this thread to rest with up-to-date, more accurate information.

[Dalhousie]

Aristarchus is  one of highest albedo features on the Moon (sometimes visible in a telescope under earthshine) and with many associated TLPs reported.  It would be a natural choice for astronaut observation while it was in shadow.

[Ishkabibble]

Okay, that brings up another thought... Are there any images from LRO showing any transient phenomena? It would seem to me that as frequent as they appear to be, that there might well be something about them. I'm not able to do a look-thru of the LRO site at the moment, so I'm just asking if there are any obvious ones that have been talked about so I can narrow my looking when I get to it.

If the Mars orbiter could get photos of landers descending on parachutes, then the timing of such an event on the moon ought not to be so unreasonable to expect. I think. 

[bknight]

Okay, that brings up another thought... Are there any images from LRO showing any transient phenomena? It would seem to me that as frequent as they appear to be, that there might well be something about them. I'm not able to do a look-thru of the LRO site at the moment, so I'm just asking if there are any obvious ones that have been talked about so I can narrow my looking when I get to it.

If the Mars orbiter could get photos of landers descending on parachutes, then the timing of such an event on the moon ought not to be so unreasonable to expect. I think. 

The chances of an orbiting camera imaging a random event is rather small, not zero, but small.

[smartcooky]

Okay, that brings up another thought... Are there any images from LRO showing any transient phenomena? It would seem to me that as frequent as they appear to be, that there might well be something about them. I'm not able to do a look-thru of the LRO site at the moment, so I'm just asking if there are any obvious ones that have been talked about so I can narrow my looking when I get to it.

If the Mars orbiter could get photos of landers descending on parachutes, then the timing of such an event on the moon ought not to be so unreasonable to expect. I think. 

The chances of an orbiting camera imaging a random event is rather small, not zero, but small.

I agree. Just think of all the  satellites that image the Earth on a daily basis.. we are talking thousands of images every day.

Despite the fact that there are, on average, between 100 to 200 airplane crashes every year, has an imaging satellite ever caught one in progress?