A flat Earth thread for Tradosaurus

[bknight]

Last I read, the Buff was planned to operate to around 2040.  A bomber that could theoretically be flown by a pilot and his son and his grandson and his great-granddaughter operationally.  The mind boggles.

Yes until 2045, by th3 article I linked.
EDIT:  Changed comment.

[DD Brock]

I read an article somewhere about a B-52 pilot who flew the same aircraft his father had flown when HE was a Buff pilot. I wish I could remember where I saw it, it might have been in an Air Force Association magazine.

On one hand it's amazing to consider those planes are still relevant, but it's also strange to think of how quickly aircraft design evolved to GET to the B-52 versus how long it now takes to get a new design in the air.

[Cat Not Included]

Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.

So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?

[frenat]

Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.

So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?

if the phone is on then they can send a signal to the phone and find out what towers it is interacting with and get a general location from that.  They may even be able to get the phone to reply back with a gps location if gps is on but they are still contacting the phone through the cell network.  If the phone is off they get nothing.

[Zakalwe]

Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.

So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?

The cell will record which phones it serves. By triangulation the info from  different cells you can get a rough fix on a SIM card location.  I can't remember the accuracy....something like to about 300 metres comes to kind. It obviously depends on cell density and if the SIM card is moving or not (if it's moving then it will be handed off to different cells).

[smartcooky]

Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.

So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?

In the USA at least, since 2001, federal legislation has required cellphone service providers to accurately identify and place phones on their network to within 100m (328 feet). This is mostly done using GPS. The phone identifies its location to within a few feet, then uses a background software app to report its location back to the cellphone service provider. As a result, the police can track a GPS phone precisely to its location, not by directly accessing the phone's GPS transmissions, but via the cell network and service provider.

I am pretty sure that this legislation, or something similar, is also in place in NZ, Australia and Canada.

NOTE: The background cellphone app mentioned above is not visible to the cellphone user, and in most modern phones, it cannot be turned off or disabled without turning the cellphone off. I have heard in some cases that it is possible to turn on the phone remotely, so the only way to truly prevent a phone broadcasting its GPS location is to turn it off and pull the battery out.

[bknight]

Yeah, a common misconception, especially among that crowd, about GPS is that it is two way.  They don't realize that a GPS no matter it is is handheld, in your car or in a plane is one way.  It receives only.  For somebody else to have your location they have to be receiving information either via radar, radio, or some other satellite link.

So does this mean that all those time in detective shows when they track someone by the GPS in their cell phone are full of it? Or is that something else?

The cell will record which phones it serves. By triangulation the info from  different cells you can get a rough fix on a SIM card location.  I can't remember the accuracy....something like to about 300 metres comes to kind. It obviously depends on cell density and if the SIM card is moving or not (if it's moving then it will be handed off to different cells).

Yes, I was going to say something similar, but you beat me to it.

[Sus_pilot]

To me, it's amazing how accurate it can get.  I fly in the back of 737's a lot and, if I sit in the window seat and orient my iPad so the camera end is facing the window (I'm pretty sure that's where the antenna lives), an aviation app called ForeFlight often gets enough satellite coverage to display 5 meter accuracy and GPS altitude.

On the other hand, there was one time the geometry precluded my iPad from "seeing" the constellation while riding in a brand new 737-800 where the WiFi hadn't been initialized yet.  It was still broadcasting (that is, it connected, but they hadn't done whatever configuration needed to connect to SWA's severs), so my iPad thought it was parked on the ramp at Renton, WA, even though we were between Omaha and St. Louis at FL 310...

[smartcooky]

To me, it's amazing how accurate it can get.  I fly in the back of 737's a lot and, if I sit in the window seat and orient my iPad so the camera end is facing the window (I'm pretty sure that's where the antenna lives), an aviation app called ForeFlight often gets enough satellite coverage to display 5 meter accuracy and GPS altitude.

On the other hand, there was one time the geometry precluded my iPad from "seeing" the constellation while riding in a brand new 737-800 where the WiFi hadn't been initialized yet.  It was still broadcasting (that is, it connected, but they hadn't done whatever configuration needed to connect to SWA's severs), so my iPad thought it was parked on the ramp at Renton, WA, even though we were between Omaha and St. Louis at FL 310...

One of the things I use my cellphone for is measuring equestrian eventing cross-country courses. Typically, a course will be between 1.5 and 3km in length and consisting of 15 to 30 obstacles.

We used to do this with a measuring wheel, and the first time we tried wakling a track with a GPS phone, we took two wheels and two phones. Over an approximately 2.5km track, the measurement spread was only 6m... less than 0.25% variance. I was impressed.

However, what I found even more impressive was that the app I was using could record where I had walked, and then create a ".kml" file which, when transferred to a Windows computer with Google Earth installed would plot the track against Google Earth satellite view.

Here's a bit of fun for anyone who wants to try. This the .kml file from a cross country track our club ran in 2014....

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/Track-140914-132903.kml

If you have Google Earth installed, just click on it to download, then double click on the downloaded file. It should open Google Earth, and zoom you right in to Marchwood Park in Motueka (next to Motueka Airport) and show the track the kids rode.   

[Sus_pilot]

Just to add, when I fly myself, I use a Stratus in conjunction with my iPad.  It's a WiFi enabled external antenna that also picks up ADS-B, getting traffic and en route weather.  It advertises 1 meter accuracy, but I'm willing to bet it's better than that.

ETA:  Here's a link to a debrief tool I use with my students.  I removed the student's name and aircraft tail number for privacy.

http://www.cloudahoy.com/debrief/?key=dnk1FbHqRhipodY4

[jfb]

Apologies for the necro, but it's not worth starting a whole new thread for this.

Getting back to the geometry involved with a flat Earth, I have a question.  Assuming the typical FE model, with all the continents on one side of the disc centered on the North Pole and Antarctica making a ring around the edge, how is it that people in Australia see a completely different night sky than people in North America? 

I can see Polaris from NA, but I cannot see the Southern Cross.  Someone in AUS can see the Southern Cross, but cannot see Polaris.  There are a number of stars and contellations that are visible to one location but not the other. 

Geometrically, that simply isn't possible if all land masses are on the same side of the disc.  Depending on how far away you want to say the stars are, they'd appear at different heights above the horizon, but they would both have to be visible at the same time for all observers on the Earth's surface. 

But they aren't.  You cannot observe the Southern Cross from NA, Europe, or Asia.  You cannot observe Polaris from Australia, Antarctica, most of South America, and a good chunk of Africa.

Now, that's not proof that the Earth is (roughly) spherical, but it's an observation that the typical FE model cannot explain, whereas a spherical model can.  The FE model would have to be modified such that some land masses are on one side of the disc and other land masses are on the other side. 

Which doesn't work either, but for a different set of reasons. 

[bknight]

It is hard to debunk stupid.

[smartcooky]

Apologies for the necro, but it's not worth starting a whole new thread for this.

Getting back to the geometry involved with a flat Earth, I have a question.  Assuming the typical FE model, with all the continents on one side of the disc centered on the North Pole and Antarctica making a ring around the edge, how is it that people in Australia see a completely different night sky than people in North America?

Flat Earthers would tell you that you can't see these stars because they are "out of range"...or somethong, whatever that means. Apparently, they they believe that the stars are not far away, they are close and not very bright, and if you are too far away from them, they aren't visible to you... go figure.

You cannot observe the Southern Cross from NA, Europe, or Asia.  You cannot observe Polaris from Australia, Antarctica, most of South America, and a good chunk of Africa.

Not true. You can see the Southern Cross in Hawaii, South Florida and Southern Texas and the Southern tip of the Baja Peninsula.

I have seen it standing upright like a cross above the horizon while standing outside the Keck observatory dome at Mauna Kea.


Crux from Kīlauea volcano

You can also see it in Japan, both Koreas, Singapore, and most of Asia including Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Sri Lanka and most of India.

Basically, you can see the whole Cross anywhere up to about 25° north latitude, just north of the Tropic of Cancer.....

[jfb]

You cannot observe the Southern Cross from NA, Europe, or Asia.  You cannot observe Polaris from Australia, Antarctica, most of South America, and a good chunk of Africa.

Not true. You can see the Southern Cross in Hawaii, South Florida and Southern Texas and the Southern tip of the Baja Peninsula.

I sit corrected.  Thanks.  For some reason I thought it was a lot closer to the south celestial pole.  Learn something new every day.

As for the FE "explanation" - oooo-kay.  Absolutely nothing to do with the fact that as you move further South, Polaris gets closer and closer to the horizon until it eventually falls below it. 

[smartcooky]

As for the FE "explanation" - oooo-kay.  Absolutely nothing to do with the fact that as you move further South, Polaris gets closer and closer to the horizon until it eventually falls below it.

Yep, I didn't say I agree with it.

It is almost understandable that a small number of people might believe in the JFK conspiracy (second gunman behind the stockade fence on The Grassy Knoll yada yada yada; even I was a believer at one time). Its also understandable that some people don't believe we went to the moon or that 9/11 was an inside job etc. These people were mostly born after the events, and never experienced them first hand. They do not have the technical nouse to understand that there aren't just mountains of documentary evidence to the contrary, their are whole ranges of mountains of evidence.

However, it takes very special kind of stupid to believe that the earth is flat in the face of evidence that is plain for anyone to see and so easy to check out. Anyone can test the Flat Earth theory for themselves with easy to do experiments

http://www.popsci.com.au/science/10-easy-ways-you-can-tell-for-yourself-that-the-earth-is-round,414182