Author Topic: Trump will win?  (Read 94704 times)

Offline bknight

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2016, 01:23:08 PM »
While trying to stay out of the firing line that seems to be forming, I believe that Trump is not the hair trigger that many have portrayed.  He will no doubt sound better now that the opposition is narrowed.

I will repeat my earlier pose.  I believe all of us will see a much more pragmatic and can do type attitude towards the polices. 

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I rather doubt that the decision for child bearing will be taken from women, but we shall see.
As for the fringe left committing suicide, doesn't this fly in the face of beliefs that diversity is supported?  diversity includes those that have a different set of beliefs, again we shall see.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2016, 09:56:26 PM »
While trying to stay out of the firing line that seems to be forming, I believe that Trump is not the hair trigger that many have portrayed.  He will no doubt sound better now that the opposition is narrowed.

I will repeat my earlier pose.  I believe all of us will see a much more pragmatic and can do type attitude towards the polices. 

What reason do you have to believe his behaviour during the campaign will change now that he has been elected? What makes you think it was just an act?

It seems like a huge gamble to me to say to yourself "he doesn't really mean these things he's saying, so I will vote for him". What if he DOES mean the things he said? If anything, I believe he was holding back during the campaign because he didn't want to lose support, and now that he has been elected his behaviour will only get worse.

His actions since the election sure point towards him following through with some of his scarier campaign promises. He promised to gut the EPA, and today he appointed Myron Ebell (a climate change denier) to his transition team for the EPA. That is what happens when you elect a billionnaire real estate developer President of the United States... they start dismantling those pesky laws that get in the way of his business. Those laws are intended to prevent disasters like the lead contaminated water in Michigan.

Do you really believe Trump has your best interests in mind? Do you really believe he is motivated by anything other than increasing his own wealth?

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I rather doubt that the decision for child bearing will be taken from women, but we shall see.

He has said he plans to nominate a Supreme Court Judge that will overturn Roe v. Wade. He has said he will defund Planned Parenthood. What reason do you have to believe he didn't mean those things? If people voted for him under the belief that his behaviour was all an act then I sure hope they were right... but it was a ridiculously huge gamble to take.

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As for the fringe left committing suicide, doesn't this fly in the face of beliefs that diversity is supported?  diversity includes those that have a different set of beliefs, again we shall see.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that people who object to things like abortion and gay rights have been discriminated against or harmed in some way by laws that permit them?

If you don't approve of abortion, don't have one. If you don't approve of gay marrige, don't marry someone of the same sex. Nothing is being imposed on you. Nothing is taken away from you.

Allowing other people to live their lives the way they want does not affect you in any way. But banning abortion or gay marriage DOES mean imposing laws or taking away rights from other people.
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Offline bknight

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2016, 11:32:41 PM »
While trying to stay out of the firing line that seems to be forming, I believe that Trump is not the hair trigger that many have portrayed.  He will no doubt sound better now that the opposition is narrowed.

I will repeat my earlier pose.  I believe all of us will see a much more pragmatic and can do type attitude towards the polices. 

What reason do you have to believe his behaviour during the campaign will change now that he has been elected? What makes you think it was just an act?

It seems like a huge gamble to me to say to yourself "he doesn't really mean these things he's saying, so I will vote for him". What if he DOES mean the things he said? If anything, I believe he was holding back during the campaign because he didn't want to lose support, and now that he has been elected his behaviour will only get worse.

His actions since the election sure point towards him following through with some of his scarier campaign promises. He promised to gut the EPA, and today he appointed Myron Ebell (a climate change denier) to his transition team for the EPA. That is what happens when you elect a billionnaire real estate developer President of the United States... they start dismantling those pesky laws that get in the way of his business. Those laws are intended to prevent disasters like the lead contaminated water in Michigan.

Do you really believe Trump has your best interests in mind? Do you really believe he is motivated by anything other than increasing his own wealth?

Quote
I rather doubt that the decision for child bearing will be taken from women, but we shall see.

He has said he plans to nominate a Supreme Court Judge that will overturn Roe v. Wade. He has said he will defund Planned Parenthood. What reason do you have to believe he didn't mean those things? If people voted for him under the belief that his behaviour was all an act then I sure hope they were right... but it was a ridiculously huge gamble to take.

Quote
As for the fringe left committing suicide, doesn't this fly in the face of beliefs that diversity is supported?  diversity includes those that have a different set of beliefs, again we shall see.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that people who object to things like abortion and gay rights have been discriminated against or harmed in some way by laws that permit them?

If you don't approve of abortion, don't have one. If you don't approve of gay marrige, don't marry someone of the same sex. Nothing is being imposed on you. Nothing is taken away from you.

Allowing other people to live their lives the way they want does not affect you in any way. But banning abortion or gay marriage DOES mean imposing laws or taking away rights from other people.
I chose not to continue an inflammatory discussion, all I will say is that it is one thing to oppose laws but quite another to circumvent them, perhaps pass additional laws with the partnership of all of Congress, not just hand a omnibus bill that no one has read for them to pass.  Regulatory measures can be reduced that is within the executive privilege.  Respond if you prefer, disagree if you will, but expect nothing further from me on this subject.
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Offline Obviousman

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2016, 12:16:51 AM »
I can only hope that he turns out to be as good a President as those who voted for him believe. Let's resume the discussion in 12 months time and do a review in preparation for the mid-terms that will follow.

Offline LionKing

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2016, 03:11:55 AM »
My question is would his advisers let him do everything he wants to do? wouldn't they inform about the consequences and tell him it is not the best interest of america to act that way?
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Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2016, 07:06:11 AM »
At least he won't be able to all the things he said he would do.

I can only hope that he turns out to be as good a President as those who voted for him believe.
I have the distinct impression that a lot of people who voted for him did not do so because they want or expect a good president.
They want somebody to burn down the system.

My question is would his advisers let him do everything he wants to do? wouldn't they inform about the consequences and tell him it is not the best interest of america to act that way?
Listening to people who tell him what he doesn't want to hear is not a Trump thing.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2016, 12:43:39 PM »
Well, I'm another who's more than a little disconcerted by the result. The interesting thing for me is the way the Clinton camp seem to have been as blindsided by the result as the Romney camp were in 2012.

My main hope for optimism is the assumption that Trump's a deal-maker, and may solve problems by a willingness to make deals with leaders of other countries that Obama and Bush turned their noses up at. My main concern for pessimism is the perception that he has a glass jaw and is liable to lash out at insults.

Anyway, I found something I posted back in 2012 which I think makes for interesting reading the context of the 2016 election: http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=147.msg5397#msg5397
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2016, 01:02:16 PM »
If people succumb to their irrational fears, that's their problem.

"Irrational"?  Hardly.  It doesn't take much doing to look into the records of those in power to see that they will be devastating to LBGT people.

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Why do you ignore the "and replaced" part?

Because I'm waiting to hear what they'll replace it with other than "something better."  Those dozens of attempts to repeal it during Obama's administration never actually came with a plan for how to replace it.  Mostly, the answer was "the free market."  Well, we know what happens with "the free market" runs health care--poor people die.

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I doubt it, but we'll see.

If you doubt it, you aren't paying attention.  Ever heard of TRAP laws?  Ever heard of Pence's own fetus funeral plan?  For simply decades, the Republicans have been doing what they can to deny women not only the right to an abortion but the right to birth control.  Do you know how many people told me they were voting for Trump because he didn't believe in killing babies?  Right now is the first time in my life I've ever been certain that I wouldn't have an abortion at some point, because I know that the pregnancy I'm currently carrying doesn't have any defects incompatible with life.  At that, it's still possible that she could die in utero and remain in my body, requiring an abortion to save my life after hers is already lost, as we know that there are Republicans who don't think I should be allowed an abortion in that case.  And they are in power. 
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2016, 03:12:54 PM »
If people succumb to their irrational fears, that's their problem.

"Irrational"?  Hardly.  It doesn't take much doing to look into the records of those in power to see that they will be devastating to LBGT people.

Quote
Why do you ignore the "and replaced" part?

Because I'm waiting to hear what they'll replace it with other than "something better."  Those dozens of attempts to repeal it during Obama's administration never actually came with a plan for how to replace it.  Mostly, the answer was "the free market."  Well, we know what happens with "the free market" runs health care--poor people die.

Quote
I doubt it, but we'll see.

If you doubt it, you aren't paying attention.  Ever heard of TRAP laws?  Ever heard of Pence's own fetus funeral plan?  For simply decades, the Republicans have been doing what they can to deny women not only the right to an abortion but the right to birth control.  Do you know how many people told me they were voting for Trump because he didn't believe in killing babies?  Right now is the first time in my life I've ever been certain that I wouldn't have an abortion at some point, because I know that the pregnancy I'm currently carrying doesn't have any defects incompatible with life.  At that, it's still possible that she could die in utero and remain in my body, requiring an abortion to save my life after hers is already lost, as we know that there are Republicans who don't think I should be allowed an abortion in that case.  And they are in power. 

I don't really care about any of that.  You have your priorities and I have mine.  You vote for candidates that promote polices that matter to you and I vote for candidates that promote policies that are important to me.  That is why we have elections.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 04:48:41 PM by Bob B. »

Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2016, 09:47:23 AM »

I don't really care about any of that.  You have your priorities and I have mine.  You vote for candidates that promote polices that matter to you and I vote for candidates that promote policies that are important to me.  That is why we have elections.
Which doesn't come with a reasonable expectation of freedom from criticism.

Candidates are a package deal.
If you vote for a candidate who advocates bigotry for other reasons than their bigotry you are still endorsing the bigotry.
You didn't find the bigotry objectionable enough to not vote for it, you are fine with people who don't happen to be middle class white heterosexual males being discriminated against as long as you get yours.

Which makes you part of the problem.
Certainly something that deserves to be criticized.
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It rots the mind and blackens the heart.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #100 on: November 12, 2016, 12:20:03 PM »
And speaking as a poor woman, it sure makes me happy to know that someone I respect doesn't think my needs are worth considering in a Presidential candidate, that the fact that it could theoretically kill me is irrelevant.
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #101 on: November 12, 2016, 12:36:33 PM »
I have never agreed 100% with any politician I have ever voted for, and I doubt you have either.  It's a pretty simple formula, which candidate most closely aligns to what I believe is the correct course of action on issues that are most important to me.  I have never voted on social issues.  I always look at things like economy, jobs, taxes, regulation, deficit, security, etc. as the most pressing issues facing this country in a presidential election.  If the two candidates where the same on these issues, which they never are, then I'd start looking at a candidate's position on secondary issues like abortion, gay marriage, etc.

A candidate's character is also a factor, but in this case I thought they were both pretty much slim.  It was the worst choice of candidates I've ever seen in my lifetime.  I couldn't stand either one, so that pretty much canceled out and I was left again to make a choice based simply on the issues.  On the economic issues and so on that I believe are most important, I was clearly more closely aligned with Donald Trump.  There was no way I could bring myself to vote for a candidate (Hillary Clinton) with which I disagreed on almost every issue that I found most important for the future success are prosperity of the American people.

As far as the other stuff goes, I put my faith in the American system of government.  Don Trump is a president (or will be), not a dictator.  We have coequal branches of government and it is Congress that passes laws.  The president can't act unilaterally (though Obama certainly did everything he could to bypass congress with executive action).  That is why I think all this sky is falling rhetoric from the left is nothing but overblown hysteria.  Don't forget also that Trump has received much resistance from within his own party, which makes the likelihood of anything damaging of controversial getting through Congress even more remote.  Our government was founded to provide checks and balances for good reason.

I also believe that, when all is said and down, Trump's pro-growth agenda will do more for minorities then the polices of Hillary Clinton.  What minorities and the middle class needs more of than anything else is good paying jobs.  I don't see that happening under the policies of a Clinton presidency.

Let's say that Hillary Clinton had won the presidency and she continue the same punishing economic policies of Presidency Obama (I actually think she proposed to make them worse with higher taxes).  We'll never know for sure, but my belief is that we would have continued with four more years of stagnant economic growth, an underemployed populace, low labor participation, exploding health care costs that are killing small business and the middle class, continued government dependency for the lower class, unbridled government spending, rising debt, and probably a bunch of other bad stuff I can't think of right now.

If that is the America that you voted for, then that makes you part of the problem.  Certainly something that deserves to be criticized.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 01:31:36 PM by Bob B. »

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #102 on: November 12, 2016, 12:46:33 PM »
And speaking as a poor woman, it sure makes me happy to know that someone I respect doesn't think my needs are worth considering in a Presidential candidate, that the fact that it could theoretically kill me is irrelevant.

Worth considering, just not at the top of my list of the things I find most important.  I believe that everything else will take care of itself if we can get the economy revved up again, which why I made pro-growth policies one of my highest priorities in this election.  Ignoring the state of the economy to focus on other issues I think is shortsighted.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #103 on: November 12, 2016, 02:13:14 PM »
Candidates are a package deal.
If you vote for a candidate who advocates bigotry for other reasons than their bigotry you are still endorsing the bigotry.
You didn't find the bigotry objectionable enough to not vote for it, you are fine with people who don't happen to be middle class white heterosexual males being discriminated against as long as you get yours.

Exactly.

If Trump's first words after announcing his candidacy were to promise to boost NASA's budget by 200% and send people back to the Moon and to Mars he'd have had my attention. But no matter how important that goal is to me, the moment he started spouting his racist, misogynistic, anti-science, self-serving, greed motivated garbage he would lose my support. The fact that he supported that one goal that is inline with what I want would not be enough to make me overlook all of his other really atrocious ideas and behaviour.

Improving the economy is a good thing if it is done right. Doing it by gutting the EPA and allowing polluters to do whatever they want is only going to create big problems in the future. It is counter productive because, sure, you might create jobs and benefit the economy now, but the damage it does will have serious economic consequences later. And all of the economic hardship that we've already endured in the name of cleaning up the environment in the past will be for nothing if Trump undoes it all with just a signature on a document. You can see the benefits of the EPA, and it's worth a little bit of hardship.

There are other ways to boost the economy without throwing away the future. If any of Trump's plans are beneficial, it's only in the very short term. And I'm not at all convinced that Trump's plans are good for the economy any way. Promising to bring jobs back to America from Mexico and China sounds great, but how is it even achievable? How is he going to make it possible for companies to employ more expensive Americans? Will he change laws to allow employers to pay their employees lower wages? Will he make forming unions and having strikes illegal? Will he strip all employees of benefits like health insurance and paid holidays? Is he going to throw out child labour laws? Because that is the only way you will make America competitive with countries like China.

It's a mystery to me how anyone could see Trump as the ideal candidate. Let's say you're fully committed to the Republican party by default. You had 7 or 8 people running for the Republican nomination who all had fixing the economy as their top goal. Why the hell would anyone choose the one candidate that is a blatant racist/sexist pig?

And yes, I'm sure abortion rights are not a top priority for many male voters because those rights also don't really affect us (men) one way or the other. Allowing women the freedom to choose what is right for them is no one's business but theirs. And making abortions illegal won't stop them from happening, it will just stop them from happening in safe hospital-like conditions.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 02:47:07 PM by LunarOrbit »
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #104 on: November 12, 2016, 02:25:51 PM »
Ignoring the state of the economy to focus on other issues I think is shortsighted.

No, what is shortsighted is focusing solely on short term economic benefits while ignoring the long term consequences of Trump's presidency.

And frankly, I'm tired of hearing republicans whine about how terrible the economy has been under Obama. Take a look at the numbers. At it's peak, the Dow Jones was I think just over 14,000 during George W. Bush's presidency (it was under 10,000 for most of that time though). Under Obama, it recovered from a major recession that started before he took office, and is now over 18,000. Unemployment is lower now than it ever was during Bush's two terms.

But because Fox News and other right wing media sources have been lying to people for the last 8 years, there is a myth that the economy has been destroyed by Obama. That kind of dishonesty in the media should be illegal.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)