Trump will win?

[Bob B.]

If I were a determined trickle-downer...

Hillary Clinton promotes trickle-down poverty.

[Bob B.]

I'm so sorry if you're upset that voting for a racist, homophobic, incompetent misogynist gets you smeared as a bigot.  I can't imagine why that would happen.

Did you vote for Bill Clinton?  An adulterous scumbag and a man accused of sexual assault and rape.

[LunarOrbit]

Once again, you might as well be describing a conservative. But we're not the ones telling people they can't marry just because we don't want to make them a cake.

But you are the ones penalizing people and causing them to lose their business because they don't want to bake somebody a cake.  While I agree with the right of a gay couple to marry, this is where I have sympathy for the religious right.  Someone shouldn't be forced to compromise their religious beliefs.  Just go to a different bakery.

But that is a very slippery slope. If you ignore that one bakery that is refusing to sell a cake to a gay couple other businesses might decide it's okay to discriminate too. Before you know it you'll have all restaurants refusing to serve gay people, automobile mechanics refusing to repair cars belonging to gay people, hotels refusing to provide rooms to gay travellers, and landlords refusing to rent apartments to gay people. Where does it end? Who decides which businesses are allowed to discriminate and which aren't? It's easier to just say no to discimination across the board.

And really, those businesses owners just need to grow up. If they're really that concerned they can just go re-read that part of the Bible that says "love thy neighbour". I'm not religious, but I do believe that IF there is a god, he is testing us on how we treat each other. People who would spoil a happy event like a wedding are failing the test.

[LunarOrbit]

I'm so sorry if you're upset that voting for a racist, homophobic, incompetent misogynist gets you smeared as a bigot.  I can't imagine why that would happen.

Did you vote for Bill Clinton?  An adulterous scumbag and a man accused of sexual assault and rape.

It was a long time ago so I don't remember the details... did we know of those accusations before the election or did it come out after he was elected?

We know what kind of man Trump is, and have for a long time. That is why we didn't take his running for President seriously.

[LunarOrbit]

There are always going to be some bigots in any group.  I'm sure there are Trump supporters that are racist, homophobic, etc., but I really think it is a minority.

I disagree. I think the Republican party has been hijacked by a lot of angry racists who had probably never even taken an interest in politics until Donald Trump came along and started saying things that appealed to them. The "classic" Republicans, people like you, have become the minority in your own party.

I think there are different types of Republican voters now. There are the ones like you that have been voting for them for years and base their decisions on the usual issues like the economy. Then there are the ones who voted for him simply because he's a celebrity from a reality TV show that they like. But I think a significant portion of this election's votes came from angry racists. It's going to be a cancer that destroys the Republican party from the inside.

You can see it in the behaviour of other Republican leaders. They know Trump is bad for the party, but they scramble to find words to defend his behaviour because they know if they go against him they will be left out in the cold.

Trump saw what was going on and tapped into the anger.

Which I think is a very dangerous game to play. Let's say Trump isn't really racist and he was just saying those things to fan the flames and win the votes from actual racists. What does he do now? If he changes his tone to one more tollerable to non-racist citizens, won't he just upset all of those angry racists that got him where he is? Like you said, those people are already angry at politicians who say one thing but do another... and now he is going to be one of those two-faced politicians.

Although Trump said some really stupid and bigoted things along the way, his main message was that he was going to Washington to blow up the system and 'drain the swamp' of all the corruption.

And yet Trump is the only high profile new face in the Republican government. There is still a lot of corruption in the Republican swamp. The only reason Obama couldn't get things done was due to Republican obstructionism.

[LunarOrbit]

Let’s say you own a business that makes breakfast cereal.  Too bad, you’re not going to see a dime of that infrastructure money.

Maybe not directly, but the people working on the infrastructure projects need to eat. It's like saying "NASA is a waste of money because we need that money down here on Earth!". But NASA creates jobs, and those employed people buy houses, cars, clothing, computers and smart phones, and groceries. And they pay taxes. That is the REAL trickle down economics, not "give all the money to 1% of the population so that they can maybe employ a few maids while keeping most of their wealth horded away in banks".

But your taxes are sure going up.  Your cost of doing business has just taken a big climb.  You’re either going to have to increase sales (which, if you could do that, you would have already done so), raise your prices, or cut operating costs.  Raising prices will either hurt your consumers, who may already be struggling to make ends meet, or force them to use less product or switch to a less expensive brand.  If either of the latter happens, you lose sales.  Your business is starting to fall into a death spiral.  In order to save the business you have to find a way to cut operating costs.  That’s never a good thing for the employees.

If your employees are lucky, maybe they’ll only see their wages frozen and their bonuses suspended.  More likely, some will lose their jobs or have their hours reduced.  Perhaps you’ll even cut back the labor force enough that you fall below the employee threshold so you can now stop providing health insurance coverage.  This might make your business profitable again, but you’re stuck at your current size and can’t afford to expand.  At least you saved the company.  Had you already been teetering on the edge of viability, the tax hikes might have forced you out of business altogether and thrown everybody onto the street.

For those lucky enough to keep their jobs, their incomes have been reduced and they’ve lost their health insurance.  I just hope they can afford to pay their mortgages and stay in their homes.  For those out of work, guess what, nobody else is hiring either because they’re all in the same predicament.  If you’re one of those out of work, there is one ray of hope – you can put on a hardhat and go see if you can get one of those infrastructure jobs.  Of course, having no experience in construction is going to work against you.  Perhaps somebody will give you a break and take you on as a common laborer, putting you to work running a jackhammer all day.  At least it puts food on the table.  I just hope the job doesn’t go to an illegal immigrant first.  One more thing, you’ll probably be forced to join the laborer’s union because the democrats are sure to put something in the bill to enrich Hillary’s union buddies.

But hey, you voted for it, right.

Who is the one fear mongering now?

Trump's plan to bring jobs back from Mexico and China is a just an empty promise. It's like a high school president promising free pizza in the cafeteria every Friday. He can't do it.

The only way he can make the United States attractive enough to employers to bring back the outsourced jobs is to make it more affordable for them to employ Americans. That would mean reducing the cost of wages, outlawing unions and strikes, stripping away benefits like paid holidays and maternity leave, and even allowing child labour. But hey, if anyone can do it it's Trump.

[Bob B.]

But that is a very slippery slope.

I agree with that.  I definitely see valid arguments on both sides.

It was a long time ago so I don't remember the details... did we know of those accusations before the election or did it come out after he was elected?

Paula Jones' sexual harassment lawsuit against Clinton was filed in 1994 during his first term, so that was known prior to his reelection in 1996.  There were also rumors about the alleged rape of Juanita Broaddrick, but she didn't come out tell the whole story until Bill's second term.  The alleged Kathleen Willey sexual assault and the Monica Lewinsky affair both occurred during the first term, but didn't become known until the second term.  So really only the Paula Jones incident and rumors of the Juanita Broaddrick incident were known prior to the 1996 election.  I don't recall any dirt on him at the time of his first election in 1992.

[Bob B.]

Maybe not directly, but the people working on the infrastructure projects need to eat. It's like saying "NASA is a waste of money because we need that money down here on Earth!". But NASA creates jobs, and those employed people buy houses, cars, clothing, computers and smart phones, and groceries. And they pay taxes. That is the REAL trickle down economics, not "give all the money to 1% of the population so that they can maybe employ a few maids while keeping most of their wealth horded away in banks".

But Hillary Clinton's plan was to simply take money out of one pocket and put it in another.  I don't see how that was going to stimulate growth one tiny bit.  If the money is just left with people who originally had it (before it was ceased by taxation), they would have spent it too.

Furthermore, a small business owner bringing in $250,000 a year is hardly the 1%.  Yet they would have seen their taxes go up under Clinton's plan.  They'll see a tax decrease under Trump's plan.  That could make the difference between laying off one employee or hiring one.

Also, what's wrong with a few more maids finding work.  No one every got a job from a poor person.

Who is the one fear mongering now?

How can I fear monger about a candidate who lost?  There is nothing to fear, she lost.  The story is meant only to illustrate what I think were the flaws in her plan.
   

[Bob B.]

The only reason Obama couldn't get things done was due to Republican obstructionism.

That's the common narrative, but the truth is more complicated.  Immediately after President Obama's election, the Republicans said they would try to block Obama's agenda.  But why should they support policy that they were being completely excluded from having any part in crafting?  Obama said early on that the Republicans had to either get on board with the Democrat agenda or they needed to go sit in the back of the bus (his words).  The Democrats had the House, a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, and the Presidency.  So how much obstruction could the Republicans really do?  The Democrats pushed ahead and really didn't even try to craft anything with bipartisan support (Obamacare being the prime example).

During the 2010 mid-term elections the Republicans won back control of the House of Representatives.  With split government, the two sides should have tried to work together and compromise.  Unfortunately things had gotten so polarized that almost nothing could get done.  Republican House wouldn't pass Obama's agenda, but don't forget that the voters had spoken and given the Republicans the House for a reason.  Are you really obstructing when the voters put you there?  The Republicans in the House would pass legislation and send it on to the Senate, but when it got there it got swallowed up by a black hole named Harry Reid (Democrat majority leader in the Senate).  Reid wouldn't even allow the legislation to make it to the floor for debate, much less take a vote on it.  So the Democrats were obstructing the Republicans just as much as the Republicans the Democrats.

Although Obama won reelection in 2012, the Republicans won control of the Senate in 2014.  So the voters were sending mixed signals.  Obama as president felt he still controlled the agenda, but the Republicans having been given control of both Houses of Congress felt they were put there to stop Obama's agenda.  Both sides are probably right.  The real problem isn't obstructionism, it's that the parties are so far apart and inflexible on many issues that they just can't work together to find compromise.  The fault lies equally with both Republicans and Democrats.

[Zakalwe]

There are always going to be some bigots in any group.  I'm sure there are Trump supporters that are racist, homophobic, etc., but I really think it is a minority.

I disagree. I think the Republican party has been hijacked by a lot of angry racists who had probably never even taken an interest in politics until Donald Trump came along and started saying things that appealed to them. The "classic" Republicans, people like you, have become the minority in your own party.

I think that there's remarkable similarities between what America has done and the madness that the UK has inflicted on itself in the recent Brexit vote. There seems to be parallels with the reaction post-result and with the accusations thrown by both sides, with the majority of the vitriol coming from the leave side.

Many people have branded the leave voters as racist, homophobic and xenophobic. I think that's wrong. I don't think that all leave voters (and Republicans0 are racist, homophobic and xenophobic- that's tarring everyone with the same brush. However I am sure that all racist, homophobes and xenophobes DID vote leave (and for Trump). Look at the news this morning about Mayor Beverley Whaling resignations after agreeing that Michelle Obama was an "ape in heels". This is the most distressing thing, for me, about both the Brexit vote and Trump- it's allowed this sort of hatred to be normalised. I see people vocalising things that 12 months ago would have drawn gasps
http://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Non-profit-director-and-mayor-under-fire-after-Facebook-post-cal-401049855.html
It's all very depressing.


 
On a side note, although I am a peaceful man,  I did find it very hard not to wish bad things on these pair of clowns when I saw this picture:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/11/14/113646754-farage-trump-news-large_trans++EDjTm7JpzhSGR1_8ApEWQA1vLvhkMtVb21dMmpQBfEs.jpg
If anyone wants beating to death with their own shoes, then it has to be Farage.

[gwiz]

Many people have branded the leave voters as racist, homophobic and xenophobic. I think that's wrong. I don't think that all leave voters (and Republicans0 are racist, homophobic and xenophobic- that's tarring everyone with the same brush. However I am sure that all racist, homophobes and xenophobes DID vote leave (and for Trump).

I'm also sure this is  true, and a very good reason for not joining their camps.

For what it's worth, here's my worldview:

Unfettered capitalism is very good at growing the economy, an area where socialist regimes fail, but it is also very good at making society more divided - "The rich get richer and the poor get nothing".  This creates all sorts of social problems, recent events a good example.

What I'd prefer is the sort of government allows business to thrive, but takes measures to redistribute the resulting wealth a bit more evenly, eg Sweden.  In particular, the government needs to stem the tide of wealth going into tax havens where it doesn't do any good for anyone.

[Jason Thompson]

This is the most distressing thing, for me, about both the Brexit vote and Trump- it's allowed this sort of hatred to be normalised.

^^^^^^^ This, a million times over. I will not stop calling out the bigotry, because those defending Trump and his supporters need to understand that, while bigotry will always be with us, when bigoted people get into power it normalises and legitimises the bigots in the population.

Godwin's law be damned, I am going to say it. The Nazis were not converted to being bigots and carrying out atrocities by Hitler, they were always bigots, and his rise to power made them feel that their actions were now justified. Hitler didn't order experiments to be carried out on disabled and other minorities. Hitler didn't order euthanasia of disabled children. Hitler didn't order Kristallnacht. All those things were carried out by people who believed that thanks to his attitudes and position of power they were now authorised to treat sections of the population as sub-human, and that he'd approve. They were right. I have seen NOTHING to indicate that Trump actually gives a damn about that possible consequence of his actions. Neither here nor in the US have any politicians responded to increased bigoted attacks by outright denouncing them and saying they do not and have never supported such attitudes. It's all over the news, and we have silence from them. SILENCE! So people will continue. How far will they have to go before someone in a position of power actually puts the brakes on?

Now don't tell me it's a minority of bigots, so that's OK. Terrorists are a minority, but Trump still got elected on the back of fear-mongering about them. So we're supposed to look at that little group of terrorists and say they're a problem that needs to be stamped out, but that minority of bigots who are attacking their own countrymen are OK because they're just a minority of the population? Don't tell me I have to live in fear of one small group who are threatening my life and livelihood but not that of another group who are threatening the lives and livelihoods of my friends and family. I am a heterosexual, married, white male, which in many ways makes me pretty damn bulletproof. That means I, and others like me, need to damn well stand up to this bigotry, not stand by and minimise it as just a little problem. I don't care if it's a minority of the population, IT. IS. NOT. ACCEPTABLE! I have friends who are potential or actual victims of racism, homophobia and misogyny whose persecutors now feel they are actually ALLOWED to abuse them because of what has happened in the last few months here and in the US. How can ANYONE think that's OK? How can anyone turn a blind eye to that and show such little empathy with people who have lived with this kind of crap all their lives but now feel they have been officially made targets by those now in power?

[LionKing]

If Clinton and Trump had exactly the same social programs, I'd vote for Clinton, because her husband did a pretty good job, and she seems cut from the same cloth. Trump has only a record of bankruptcies and failure to pay taxes.

Can he get away with it in America without being jailed?

[gwiz]

Can he get away with it in America without being jailed?

He's very rich, he can afford the best accountants and the best lawyers, so yes he can get away with it.

[Glom]

There are always going to be some bigots in any group.  I'm sure there are Trump supporters that are racist, homophobic, etc., but I really think it is a minority.

I disagree. I think the Republican party has been hijacked by a lot of angry racists who had probably never even taken an interest in politics until Donald Trump came along and started saying things that appealed to them. The "classic" Republicans, people like you, have become the minority in your own party.

I think that there's remarkable similarities between what America has done and the madness that the UK has inflicted on itself in the recent Brexit vote. There seems to be parallels with the reaction post-result and with the accusations thrown by both sides, with the majority of the vitriol coming from the leave side.

Many people have branded the leave voters as racist, homophobic and xenophobic. I think that's wrong. I don't think that all leave voters (and Republicans0 are racist, homophobic and xenophobic- that's tarring everyone with the same brush. However I am sure that all racist, homophobes and xenophobes DID vote leave (and for Trump). Look at the news this morning about Mayor Beverley Whaling resignations after agreeing that Michelle Obama was an "ape in heels". This is the most distressing thing, for me, about both the Brexit vote and Trump- it's allowed this sort of hatred to be normalised. I see people vocalising things that 12 months ago would have drawn gasps
http://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Non-profit-director-and-mayor-under-fire-after-Facebook-post-cal-401049855.html
It's all very depressing.


 
On a side note, although I am a peaceful man,  I did find it very hard not to wish bad things on these pair of clowns when I saw this picture:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/11/14/113646754-farage-trump-news-large_trans++EDjTm7JpzhSGR1_8ApEWQA1vLvhkMtVb21dMmpQBfEs.jpg
If anyone wants beating to death with their own shoes, then it has to be Farage.

Let's give Trump this. He was more magnanimous in victory than Farage was, who took the opportunity to be a contemptible as possible in Hemicycle immediately afterwards.