Author Topic: Van Allen on Space Radiation.  (Read 53716 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2016, 02:13:02 PM »
He's just continuing the accusation from the last time he was here and banned.

And will surely be banned again, as LunarOrbit does not tolerate sock puppets for banned posters.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2016, 02:14:10 PM »
I'm not sure...

So you're not above spreading information whose truth you have not investigated?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Scott

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2016, 02:38:50 PM »
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Name someone who has the appropriate qualifications and who believes Apollo is a hoax.   

How about this guy?

Lunar rover on the moon. Was it a RC model? (Extended Edition)

Offline frenat

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2016, 02:44:12 PM »
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How do you KNOW this person and their story are real?  What have you done to verify any of it?   
I'm not sure but I want the viewers to know the possibility is there.
You're not sure yet you copy/paste it as fact any way.  Tell me another tall tale.

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  It has been pointed out to you before that YOU fit many of these supposed 25 ways yourself.  What do you have to say to that?   
Go into some detail and we can talk about it.
You've been given detail on other forums multiple times and ignored it multiple times.  Not worth wasting my time on someone I think is a bot.

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    How do you KNOW they describe a disinformationist and not just any random person on the internet? 
Intuition and common sense.  I see tactics that only a sophist would use such as trying to bury the part of a debate in which he's checkmanted to reduce the number of viewers who see it instead of simply modifying his or her position.
So when others use the tactics they are sophists (or rather when they disagree with you) but when you use them (and you do) then you aren't.  Hypocrite.
-Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension.
 -Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
 -There are no bad ideas, just great ideas that go horribly wrong.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2016, 02:47:33 PM »
How about this guy?

No qualification in space science or astrophysics.  No, he's not qualified to discuss radiation.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Ranb

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2016, 10:29:18 PM »
Scott, do you really understand what is written in this article?  Do you believe it?

One of the most interesting of Van Allen's findings was that once protons and electrons hit the aluminum skin of the spacecraft, they would turn into x-rays. The kind the average dentist protects patients against with two inch lead vests. Those rays would naturally penetrate the astronaut's bodies and create anything from nausea and vomiting to eventual death, depending on the length of the exposure.
Do you know what dose is required to cause nausea, vomiting and death?

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The National Committee on Radiation Protection (NCRP) and the International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP) had established low "permissible doses" of radiation at levels that were consistent with living on earth. However, where the critical dosage on earth might be 5 rems of radiation in a year, the astronauts would receive that amount within minutes passing through the lower zone of the radiation belt.
What is a critical dosage?  As a radiation worker employed by a Naval Shipyard I'm permitted to receive up to 5 rem per year of ionizing radiation to my whole body.  I normally receive less than a tenth of the legal limit even though I've had to purposely expose myself to up to 9 rem per hour of gamma radiation during the course of my work on nuclear propulsion plants.  Time reduction is the key to keeping my exposure low.

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In order to penetrate Van Allen's belt, in l965 NASA requested the two regulatory groups modify the existing standards for space flight. It was simply a matter of "risk over gain" and NASA convinced them to change the standards and allow them to take the risk. Whether or not future astronauts would be advised of these dramatically lowered standards and substantial risk is unknown at this time.
Seeing as how dosimeters were carried on the spacecraft, it is very likely the astronauts knew what exposure they were receiving

So exactly what are the radiation levels outside of LEO?  How did you determine what they are? 

Ranb

Offline frenat

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2016, 10:38:36 PM »
Scott has been banned as a sock puppet.  And I doubt he would have read your post anyway.  He has only ever been concerned with people agreeing with him, hence the "credibility tests" where if you don't exactly agree with him then you must be a shill and can be disregarded.
-Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension.
 -Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
 -There are no bad ideas, just great ideas that go horribly wrong.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2016, 11:23:35 PM »
Seeing as how dosimeters were carried on the spacecraft, it is very likely the astronauts knew what exposure they were receiving

As part of the crew status report, dosimeter readings were read down a couple times a day.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline ka9q

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2016, 03:21:49 AM »
As part of the crew status report, dosimeter readings were read down a couple times a day.
And they're published. The Apollo Experience Report on Protection from Radiation gives numbers up to Apollo 15. They're skin doses in rads:

7 - 0.16
8 - 0.16
9 - 0.20
10 - 0.48
11 - 0.18
12 - 0.58
13 - 0.24
14 - 1.14
15 - 0.30

The numbers for 16 and 17 are probably in their mission reports, or some other document written after this one.


Offline Bob B.

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2016, 05:29:53 PM »
16 - 0.51
17 - 0.55

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2016, 04:34:10 AM »
I take one week off to go to Glastonbury and I miss some fun!

I have resorted to asking, repeatedly, and so far without any kind of response:

At what point would the astronauts have died? Where in space? What time into the mission?

The hoaxnuts, for all their expertise and depth of knowledge in this topic, don't seem to have an answer.

Offline bknight

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2016, 07:20:00 AM »
I take one week off to go to Glastonbury and I miss some fun!

I have resorted to asking, repeatedly, and so far without any kind of response:

At what point would the astronauts have died? Where in space? What time into the mission?

The hoaxnuts, for all their expertise and depth of lack of knowledge in this topic, don't seem to have an answer.
FTFY :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Apollo 957

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2016, 09:35:36 AM »
The proof is in the anomalies such as the flag's moving without having been touched in a way that's perfectly consistent with movement in atmosphere.

But the proof is also in the host of still photos and videos of the EVAs, none of which show ANY other sign of atmosphere - no dust, airborne particulates, nothing blowing in front of the lens, no weather, no wind, etc. 

Offline sts60

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2016, 04:40:32 PM »
You're wasting your time.  Scott is banned; he was a sock-puppet of Ricky/DavidC/FatFreddy88/etc.

By his own criteria, he is a disinformation agent anyway (sometime I'll post a summary laying out all the reasons why) as well as a big fat hypocrite.  He's also a self-demonstrated liar, since he deliberately agreed to the forum rules in order to break them to register his latest sock-puppet.

Just in case he's reading this:

Don't whine about it, rocky; those are your criteria.  It's your own fault, and no one else's, that you have demonstrated yourself to be a liar, hypocrite, and disinformation agent. 

By the way, since you said you live in Madrid, why don't you go over to the Madrid Tracking Station, or see some of those Spanish researchers whose work on the Van Allen belts I cited for you?  Oh, that's right: you're not only a liar and a hypocrite, you're a coward as well.

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Van Allen on Space Radiation.
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2016, 04:26:03 PM »
I realize that Scott is long gone, but I's still like to respond to the James Collier article in the opening post.

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Van Allen's conclusion was delivered in a speech to the Academy of Science in 1959. He warned future space travelers they would have to race through these two zones on their way to outer planets.

And racing through these two zones was exactly what Apollo did.

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"All manned space flight attempts must steer clear of these two belts of radiation until adequate means of safeguarding the astronauts has been developed" he said.

And that is exactly what happened, they steered clear of the belts until adequate means of safeguarding the astronauts had been developed.  Furthermore, Dr. Van Allen's quote is taken out of context.  He was not referring to a rapid transit through the radiation belts.  Dr. Van Allen was specifically discussing two missions (Vanguard I and Sputnik III) that each spend two years orbiting through this region of space.  His warning was in reference to the integrated radiation exposure from these long duration missions.  Nothing in his statements preclude the possibility of an Apollo-style mission.

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Moreover, Van Allen advised they would have to be shielded with some extra layers of protection beyond that of the spacecraft itself.

Dr. Van Allen's writings cite exposure levels behind shielding meeting "minimum structural considerations for space vehicles."  Apollo was shielded well beyond the minimum structural considerations to which Dr. Allen was referring.

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National Aeronautic and Space Administration (NASA), which is part of the Department of Defense and the CIA

False.

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It was their job to build a spacecraft that would meet Van Allen's scientific requirements of safety through the radiation belts. Van Allen stated that the ship's skin, made of aluminum, would not be enough protection for the astronauts.

Yes, Apollo's aluminum skin would not be enough.

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Extra shielding of lead or another substance that would absorb the radiation would be needed.

To my knowledge, neither Dr. Van Allen nor anyone else proposed the use of lead.  The extra shielding was provided by the spacecraft's thermal protection system.  This consisted off a stainless steel structural hull, to which was adhered an ablative phenolic resin.  Although the primary function of this material was to protect the spacecraft and astronauts against reentry heat, it also doubled as radiation shielding.  Between the aluminum hull, the stainless steel hull, and the ablative heat shield, it was found that enough radiation shielding was present that nothing more had to be added.

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That, of course, posed the problem of weight. More weight created a booster problem. In other words, they would need a bigger rocket to carry a ship that was properly lined against radiation penetration.

But not an insurmountable problem.  The final weight of the shielded spacecraft was within the launch capacity of the Saturn V booster.

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One of the most interesting of Van Allen's findings was that once protons and electrons hit the aluminum skin of the spacecraft, they would turn into x-rays.

Actually, the overwhelming majority of protons and electrons were be stopped by the ablative heat shield, with most of the remainder being stopped by the stainless steel hull.  The aluminum hull provided a good shield for the x-rays that were produced in the outer layers of the hull.

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The kind the average dentist protects patients against with two inch lead vests.

First, not the kind that the average dentist protects against.  Medical x-rays are of higher energy and are more penetrating than the x-rays produced in the spacecraft hull.  Second, two inches?  Seriously?  A dental x-ray apron has the standard protection of 0.3 mm lead equivalency.  Furthermore, the lead apron that a dentist uses is as much about covering the dentist's arse as it is about covering the patient.  Since the dentist does not know what other x-rays or radiation exposure the patient made have recently had, the vest is a safeguard against accumulative exposure.

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Those rays would naturally penetrate the astronaut's bodies and create anything from nausea and vomiting to eventual death, depending on the length of the exposure.

No, the secondary x-rays produced were predominately soft x-rays, which would not penetrate deeply and cause the type of illness described.  More importantly, the multi-layered hull provided enough shielding that an insignificant number of x-rays would even penetrate it.

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All of this scientific data presented a big problem for NASA. How could they build a spacecraft that would meet radiation standards and yet get off the ground?

Just look at Apollo and you have your answer.

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However, where the critical dosage on earth might be 5 rems of radiation in a year, the astronauts would receive that amount within minutes passing through the lower zone of the radiation belt.

Nope.  For all but one mission, the astronauts received less than 1 rem for the entirety of a mission.

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NASA announced that a simple aluminum skin on the command module was enough to protect astronauts from lethal doses of radiation.

Nope.  The complete spacecraft hull was enough to protect the astronauts from lethal doses of radiation.  The aluminum skin is only one small component of a thick multi-layered construction.

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They verified that the craft was not protected by any additional shielding.

It wasn't protected by any specialized radiation shielding beyond the hull, but it was most definitely protected well beyond just the aluminum skin that formed part of the inner pressure hull.

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It was at this point in our research that we realized the Van Allen Report had been seriously compromised by NASA.

That's your perception because you are an uninformed ignoramus.  All the safeguards employed by NASA were completely consistent with the recommendations made by Dr. Van Allen.

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One of his most important tenets was that even if you raced quickly through the 65,000 mile belt, which starts 400 miles above the earth's surface (thus allowing for inner space travel) you would still need considerable additional shielding. Were his findings now bogus?

Dr. Van Allen's finding were not at all bogus.  The spacecraft was adequately shielded as Dr. Van Allen said it would have to be.

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If you believe we went to the moon, then you have to disregard Van Allen's years of research and published findings.

Nope.  NASA's solutions to the radiation problem were entirely consistent with Dr. Van Allen's research and published findings.

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You would also have to believe that aluminum, and not lead, is adequate protection against radiation in the very heart of the Belt.

You're right about the lead part, that is not a proper material to shield against particle radiation.  As for what is adequate protection, a multi-layered construction consisting of an aluminum honeycomb bonded between two aluminum face sheets, a stainless steel honeycomb bonded between two stainless steel face sheets, and a layer of phenolic epoxy resin ranging from 1/2" and 2 1/2" thick would do the job.  Furthermore, Apollo didn't get anywhere near "the very heart of the Belt."  The radiation exposure along the trajectories flown by Apollo were <5% of what they would be had they flown through the heart of the belts.