Author Topic: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.  (Read 266484 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #120 on: June 18, 2012, 05:40:47 AM »
In other words, the light reflecting from the lunar surface is roughly equivalent to a 100 watt lightbulb on every visible square meter of surface.
It's actually quite a bit more than a 100 watt light bulb because the color temperature of the sun (5800 K) is much hotter than the temperature of the tungsten filament in a lightbulb (2000-3000 K, depending on type). Nearly all of the power into the filament still comes out as electromagnetic radiation, but because of the lower temperature a far greater fraction comes out in the infrared where you can't see it (but it still heats the room).

So a 100W light bulb (1750 lumens) is subjectively nowhere near as bright as 100W of sunlight (9300 lumens).

The ideal incandescent light bulb would have a filament temperature of about 6600 K, a little hotter than the sun where it would produce 95 lumens/W. Much of it would still be invisible IR or UV but a 100W bulb at that temperature would then be subjectively slightly brighter than 100W of sunlight. No known filament material can work at this temperature.



Offline Count Zero

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2012, 05:49:48 AM »
Good point.  Reminds me of my dad's 8mm movies when, for whatever reason wouldn't have the correct filter on the camera to correct for the light source.  Shooting with indoor film outside would look too blue and washed-out.  Shooting with outdoor film inside would be way too orange (not to mention dark).
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2012, 05:59:58 AM »
Hey, Advancedboy, how come you didn't mention you got slapped down by a mod and banned on the Secret Projects forum for repeatedly breaking rules regarding moon landing denial?
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline advancedboy

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #123 on: June 18, 2012, 09:24:34 AM »
Couldn`t you simultaneously add even more questions?  How do you expect me to answer all of them? Or at least deal with them? I added the vid specifically to address the 10 minute and 11 second mark. And I mean specifically the rectangle anomaly in that picture. Nothing else, I didn`t need to know how bad or schizofrenic he is, or how you got tired after watching 3 minutes of the video.  Just address the 10;11 mark, address the rectangle and colour dissonance along its lines. Simple as that. Don`t call people names behind their back. If you want address hunchbacked, invite him here, or let him reason his refusal.
Emma, yes, I was banned for a week or two from that forum. I was never rude, or accusing anyone personally, but I wanted to talk the moonhoax, and i even couldn`t really start the discussion, when they banned me. I am not denying, but would you expect me to talk about it here on my own initiative? If you were really educated people, or people dealing with science, you would ask me how did I design that helicopter, or what ideas did I put there, what innovations did I plan, or what else I have designed. I f you were really scientists, and engineers, i would gladly see what have you built with your own hands. And you could have asked me the same questions. Where are you space , and aviation engineers? come out, i will gladly discuss airframes anf future aircraft. Why don`t you use a chance?
And you know for yourself that there are atronauts who have talked about how beatiful the stars were from space, and you know that this issue has been addressed by jarrah White and Unforgiven ( or similar, can`t remeber his name precisely).
You know , how NASA has added fire to the conspiracy by declaring no flyby zones, how they have postponed and postponed the return to the moon, joggling from `irrelevant-been there done that, to let`s do it in 2050.
isn`t it amazing that those truly amazing science people were not even interested in having superb star pictures taken on the far side of the moon, . While their 3rd guy was waiting in capsule in lunar orbit, noone of the 2 astronauts was even interested in trying to film or photograph it up there. Want the paper work from Boeing about lunar rover, nope, sorry, we flushed it down the toilet. it is NASA itself that curbs the conspiracy, . Adding more and more fuel to the fire. Where is Baron`s report, even if he was killed by an alien, what happened to NASA`s interest about the report of feasibility of the project .
Talking about the stars I dont mean that by any conditions they could photograph stars, I mean they had a lot of chances  to adopt different lenses and exposure settings, and use very good circumstances, in shadows or behind huge boulders to make  really wonderful pictures. Personally I would really like to photograph satellites of jupiter in vacuum, had I been on the moon. I would be really interested in usinga FLIR camera as well. And I would definitely ask a question where is Westinghouse with their cutting edge videocameras today? What stopped them from accumulating expertize and  be a manufacturer of optics or consumer goods, domestically I mean?
I demand NASA for their future space exploration to ( Mars)use their almighty F-1 engine and continue improving it.  :)
 Now kinda interesting all of you attacking me simultaneously. I would like someone to take my side as well, or I am the only one here? Were you really gentlemen, you wouldn`t even allow me to be cornered by so many of you at the same time.
When addressing me, try to imagine , I am a human, not an indicted person in trial.
 

Offline SolusLupus

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #124 on: June 18, 2012, 09:28:16 AM »
Now kinda interesting all of you attacking me simultaneously. I would like someone to take my side as well, or I am the only one here? Were you really gentlemen, you wouldn`t even allow me to be cornered by so many of you at the same time.
When addressing me, try to imagine , I am a human, not an indicted person in trial.

You came to a forum... belonging to a site... devoted to debunking the "moon hoax" belief... and you're surprised when you're challenged on your claims by the majority there?

No, I'm not going to artificially take your side, because the facts aren't on your side, and I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue in the first place either (and you tend to ignore challenges to that effect).

Besides which, what do you intend me to do, tell every other poster they can't make a post?
“Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love.” -- Kahlil Gibran

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Offline Andromeda

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #125 on: June 18, 2012, 09:40:43 AM »
Couldn`t you simultaneously add even more questions?  How do you expect me to answer all of them?

Pot, meet kettle.


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Emma, yes, I was banned for a week or two from that forum. I was never rude, or accusing anyone personally, but I wanted to talk the moonhoax, and i even couldn`t really start the discussion, when they banned me.

So you admit you knowingly broke the rules of an online forum, and you don't care.


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If you were really educated people, or people dealing with science, you would ask me how did I design that helicopter, or what ideas did I put there, what innovations did I plan, or what else I have designed.

None of that is anything to do with Apollo, so why would I bring it up here?


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I f you were really scientists, and engineers, i would gladly see what have you built with your own hands.

Building things is but one science.  And I am afarid the old, "You're lying!  you're not REAL scientists" is a very old and familiar tactic.  I REFUSE to post my degree certificates here to prove I am a scientist because that would be a gross invasion of my privacy.


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And you know for yourself that there are atronauts who have talked about how beatiful the stars were from space, and you know that this issue has been addressed by jarrah White and Unforgiven ( or similar, can`t remeber his name precisely).

Seeing stars from space =/= photographing them on the surface of the moon.

Didn't Playdor harp on about the same thing and refuse to accept the facts?


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You know , how NASA has added fire to the conspiracy by declaring no flyby zones, how they have postponed and postponed the return to the moon, joggling from `irrelevant-been there done that, to let`s do it in 2050.
isn`t it amazing that those truly amazing science people were not even interested in having superb star pictures taken on the far side of the moon, . While their 3rd guy was waiting in capsule in lunar orbit, noone of the 2 astronauts was even interested in trying to film or photograph it up there. Want the paper work from Boeing about lunar rover, nope, sorry, we flushed it down the toilet. it is NASA itself that curbs the conspiracy, . Adding more and more fuel to the fire. Where is Baron`s report, even if he was killed by an alien, what happened to NASA`s interest about the report of feasibility of the project .
Talking about the stars I dont mean that by any conditions they could photograph stars, I mean they had a lot of chances  to adopt different lenses and exposure settings, and use very good circumstances, in shadows or behind huge boulders to make  really wonderful pictures. Personally I would really like to photograph satellites of jupiter in vacuum, had I been on the moon. I would be really interested in usinga FLIR camera as well. And I would definitely ask a question where is Westinghouse with their cutting edge videocameras today? What stopped them from accumulating expertize and  be a manufacturer of optics or consumer goods, domestically I mean?
I demand NASA for their future space exploration to ( Mars)use their almighty F-1 engine and continue improving it.  :)

Blah blah, rant rant.  NASA sux etc etc.


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Now kinda interesting all of you attacking me simultaneously. I would like someone to take my side as well, or I am the only one here?

This is a board devoted to debunking HB's claims.  You came here as a HB and were immediately combative, aggressive and rude.


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Were you really gentlemen

I am not a gentleman, nor have I claimed to be.  I am a lady.


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you wouldn`t even allow me to be cornered by so many of you at the same time.

"Wah!  Mummy, the big boys all started on me just because I walked over and punched one on the nose!"


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When addressing me, try to imagine , I am a human, not an indicted person in trial.

We are not dehumanising you when asking for proof of your claims.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #126 on: June 18, 2012, 09:42:09 AM »
Couldn`t you simultaneously add even more questions?  How do you expect me to answer all of them?
Funny you should say that, since you were the one who began a Gish Gallop, tossing out dozens of unrelated points instead of sticking to one point at a time.

Reap what you sow.




Offline SolusLupus

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #127 on: June 18, 2012, 09:56:30 AM »
Couldn`t you simultaneously add even more questions?  How do you expect me to answer all of them? Or at least deal with them? I added the vid specifically to address the 10 minute and 11 second mark. And I mean specifically the rectangle anomaly in that picture. Nothing else, I didn`t need to know how bad or schizofrenic he is, or how you got tired after watching 3 minutes of the video.  Just address the 10;11 mark, address the rectangle and colour dissonance along its lines. Simple as that.
  It's "schizophrenic", with a "ph", not an "f".  And if you were to run many images through filters, you eventually get weird-shaped objects that you can identify as something; this is called pareidolia.  Similar to the "face on mars", which only looks like a face from one particular angle.  Or the "Jesus nebula".

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Don`t call people names behind their back. If you want address hunchbacked, invite him here, or let him reason his refusal.

If someone is dishonest, it is worth calling them dishonest when evaluating their claims, whether they are physically present or not.

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If you were really educated people, or people dealing with science, you would ask me how did I design that helicopter, or what ideas did I put there, what innovations did I plan, or what else I have designed.

So many of your points rest on assuming what others "should" or "should not" do, as if everyone acts on your presupposed notions.  This is a fallacy.

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You know , how NASA has added fire to the conspiracy by declaring no flyby zones, how they have postponed and postponed the return to the moon, joggling from `irrelevant-been there done that, to let`s do it in 2050.

Why would they return to the moon?  Also, what about voyager spacecraft and other things they've sent out?  What about the many people they're sending into space today?
“Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love.” -- Kahlil Gibran

My blog about life, universe, and everything: http://solusl.blogspot.com/

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #128 on: June 18, 2012, 10:13:24 AM »
Couldn`t you simultaneously add even more questions?  How do you expect me to answer all of them? Or at least deal with them?

Oh, so you're crying foul because we didn't play nice and answer you one at a time? You, who are just throwing more and more crap at the wall with every post, refusing to acknowledge responses and deal with the answers and reasons you have been given?

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I added the vid specifically to address the 10 minute and 11 second mark. And I mean specifically the rectangle anomaly in that picture. Nothing else, I didn`t need to know how bad or schizofrenic he is, or how you got tired after watching 3 minutes of the video.  Just address the 10;11 mark, address the rectangle and colour dissonance along its lines. Simple as that.

I did. At least one other person did. Again, it is a JPEG compression artifact highlighted by messing around in photoshop. Does that rectangular feature show up on the original FILM with the picture on it?

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Don`t call people names behind their back. If you want address hunchbacked, invite him here, or let him reason his refusal.

He has been on this board, or at least the previous incarnation of it, under a different name. He was banned for being rude and refusing to debate in a sensible fashion, being wilfully ignorant and utterly refusing to do even the simplest bit of research that might prove his ideas wrong. He has earned the treatment he gets from the long term posters here. Don't you come on and try to lecture us in manners.

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If you were really educated people, or people dealing with science, you would ask me how did I design that helicopter, or what ideas did I put there, what innovations did I plan, or what else I have designed.

No we wouldn't, because that has NOTHING to do with what you are discussing here.

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I f you were really scientists, and engineers, i would gladly see what have you built with your own hands.

I AM a scientist, by profession and qualification. We don't build things with our own hands, but I have spent almost seven years as part of a team designing and developing a novel blood testing device. When it goes to market I'll let you know.

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And you could have asked me the same questions.

Why would we? You were asked about your qualifications.

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Where are you space , and aviation engineers? come out, i will gladly discuss airframes anf future aircraft. Why don`t you use a chance?

They're already here. They are not discussing those subjects because that is not what this forum is for.
 
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And you know for yourself that there are atronauts who have talked about how beatiful the stars were from space, and you know that this issue has been addressed by jarrah White and Unforgiven ( or similar, can`t remeber his name precisely).

Yes, and they, like you it seems, cannot grasp the simple fact that what you can see and what you can photograph are two very different things due to the different way your eye works compared to a camera.

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You know , how NASA has added fire to the conspiracy by declaring no flyby zones,

Yeah, it's funny how they want to keep some airways free for their own tests rather than risk random private and commercial airliners flying into them isn't it?

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how they have postponed and postponed the return to the moon, joggling from `irrelevant-been there done that, to let`s do it in 2050.

Irrelevant. What they are doing now with regard to the Moon does not invalidate what they did fifty years ago.

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isn`t it amazing that those truly amazing science people were not even interested in having superb star pictures taken on the far side of the moon,

What would be so amazing about them?

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While their 3rd guy was waiting in capsule in lunar orbit, noone of the 2 astronauts was even interested in trying to film or photograph it up there.

Do please feel free to tell us what an Apollo spacecraft at 69 miles altitude would loook like in a picture or video.

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Want the paper work from Boeing about lunar rover, nope, sorry, we flushed it down the toilet.

There is plenty of paperwork about the lunar rover, you just have to go and actually look for it rather than expect them to be able to deliver every sheet of paper that was ever printed on the subject at your request.

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Talking about the stars I dont mean that by any conditions they could photograph stars, I mean they had a lot of chances  to adopt different lenses and exposure settings, and use very good circumstances, in shadows or behind huge boulders to make  really wonderful pictures.

Again, what would be wonderful about pictures of the stars taken on the Moon compared to taken down here? What would be so significantly wonderful about it that they would devote time and effort to getting those images instead of studying the NEW UNTOUCHED LUNAR SURFACE AT THEIR FEET!!!

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Personally I would really like to photograph satellites of jupiter in vacuum, had I been on the moon.

Look up your history. By the time Apollo landed on the Moon, the Voyager probes were in development. And AGAIN, what would be so spectacular about a picture of Jupiter taken from the moon compared to one taken from Earth?

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I would be really interested in usinga FLIR camera as well.

What about a far UV camera? Isn't it weird they didn't take the opportunity to take the one type of picture of the stars that could not be taken from Earth? Oh, wait, THEY DID!

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And I would definitely ask a question where is Westinghouse with their cutting edge videocameras today?

Do you think their 'cutting edge' video cameras had much application outside of the space program? They were poor cousins to the cameras that can be handled and used on Earth due to the limitations on their size, weight and bandwidth that were not a constraint to normal TV cameras. Westinghouse cameras were used in space for a long time.

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Were you really gentlemen, you wouldn`t even allow me to be cornered by so many of you at the same time.
When addressing me, try to imagine , I am a human, not an indicted person in trial.

Were you a gentleman you would conduct yourself in a more mature manner. You raised issues, you were responded to, and instead of dealing with them you just throw out rubbish like this.

You also claimed to be something you are not, by doing the standard 'I'm neutral' approach so favoured by conspiracy theorists. The treatment you receive here, as on any board, is very strongly related to the way you act yourself.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #129 on: June 18, 2012, 10:20:35 AM »
The following is from pages ago, but since advancedboy again recently metioned the F-1, I like to comment.

We might Ask where are the endless improvements of F-1 that would be used today in American rocketry?

Today's launch business is dominated by medium-lift launch vehicles, in which the F-1 engine has no role to play.  The only American heavy-lift vehicle since the days of Saturn was the Space Shuttle, and it used an entirely different design philosophy, combining simple and relatively inexpensive solid rocket motors with high-efficiency hydrogen burning engines.  When NASA started working on new heavy-lift vehicles (the Ares I and V, which have now been canceled), they decided to use to use current Shuttle-derived technology rather than trying to resurrect something that was decades out of date.

The Shuttle philosophy of using solids in combination with LOX/LH2 is now pretty widely used, both in and outside the United States.  Some examples include Delta IV (USA), Ariane 5 (Europe), and H-IIA (Japan).

Offline carpediem

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #130 on: June 18, 2012, 10:38:26 AM »
He has been on this board, or at least the previous incarnation of it, under a different name. He was banned for being rude and refusing to debate in a sensible fashion, being wilfully ignorant and utterly refusing to do even the simplest bit of research that might prove his ideas wrong. He has earned the treatment he gets from the long term posters here. Don't you come on and try to lecture us in manners.
Hunchbacked was never banned on the old board, he just gave up posting when we all weren't incredibly impressed by his arguments.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:59:19 AM by carpediem »

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #131 on: June 18, 2012, 10:43:23 AM »
Talking about the stars I dont mean that by any conditions they could photograph stars, I mean they had a lot of chances  to adopt different lenses and exposure settings, and use very good circumstances, in shadows or behind huge boulders to make  really wonderful pictures.

In today's dollars, each manhour of lunar EVA cost American taxpayers nearly $1,000,000,000.  I for one am extremely grateful they spent that time studying the moon and didn't fritter it away by taking pictures of stars.  Your suggestion would have been a colossal waste of time and opportunity.  Star photos can be obtained far more cheaply by other means, studying the moon up close by humans cannot.

Offline carpediem

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #132 on: June 18, 2012, 10:43:48 AM »
You know , how NASA has added fire to the conspiracy by declaring no flyby zones, how they have postponed and postponed the return to the moon, joggling from `irrelevant-been there done that, to let`s do it in 2050.
The term no fly zone was used in the title of an AP article, not by NASA and only applies to the Apollo 11 & 17 sites. You don't do a lot of research do you?

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #133 on: June 18, 2012, 10:56:36 AM »
Don`t call people names behind their back.

By "names", do you mean things like "fraud" and "life-long liar"?

And by "people" can we include...

Frank Borman
Bill Anders
Jim Lovell
Tom Stafford
John Young
Gene Cernan
Neil Armstrong
Buzz Aldrin
Mike Collins
Pete Conrad
Al Bean
Dick Gordon
Fred Haise
Jack Swigert
Alan Shepard
Ed Mitchell
Stu Roosa
Dave Scott
Jim Irwin
Al Worden
Charlie Duke
Ken Mattingly
Jack Schmitt
Ron Evans

...not to mention Dr. James van Allen and several hundred thousand other people?  Because when you say...

I do believe Apollo was hoaxed

...that is exactly what you are calling them.

You hypocrite.  Don't even try to take the moral high-ground.   >:(
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Strong arguments versus weak arguments.
« Reply #134 on: June 18, 2012, 11:01:49 AM »
Couldn`t you simultaneously add even more questions?  How do you expect me to answer all of them? Or at least deal with them?

If you focus on proving something, irrelevant comments can safely be ignored.  You are the one letting yourself get sidetracked. 

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Just address the 10;11 mark, address the rectangle and colour dissonance along its lines.

This is a perfect example.  Focus on why you think this is a problem.  Give us the reasons you think this is suspicious.  Then defend those reasons.


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I f you were really scientists, and engineers, i would gladly see what have you built with your own hands. And you could have asked me the same questions. Where are you space , and aviation engineers? come out, i will gladly discuss airframes anf future aircraft. Why don`t you use a chance?

There is a General Discussion section of this forum if you want to start a thread to discuss these things.  Unlike your other board, our primary purpose s to discuss claims a an Apollo hoax.   Besides we are from many different backgrounds, I studied and practice finance.

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You know , how NASA has added fire to the conspiracy by declaring no flyby zones, how they have postponed and postponed the return to the moon, joggling from `irrelevant-been there done that, to let`s do it in 2050.

Show us that this "fire" isn't purely in your imagination by documenting NASA's explanations for such things and telling us why your conspiracy theory better fits the events. 

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Talking about the stars I dont mean that by any conditions they could photograph stars, I mean they had a lot of chances  to adopt different lenses and exposure settings, and use very good circumstances,
You continue to ignore the photos of stars that were taken.  Why is that?

ETA

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I would like someone to take my side as well, or I am the only one here? Were you really gentlemen, you wouldn`t even allow me to be cornered by so many of you at the same time.

Please spare us your martyr speech.  If you feel cornered, it is your on vagueness that has painted you into the corner.   
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When addressing me, try to imagine , I am a human, not an indicted person in trial.

Here is the human I imagine you to be, the person in the photo, a young man who know very little about the things he discusses, yet hurls insults on people who have made tremendous achievements without quite knowing they are insults.

Quoted in whole for archival purposes.

Couldn`t you simultaneously add even more questions?  How do you expect me to answer all of them? Or at least deal with them? I added the vid specifically to address the 10 minute and 11 second mark. And I mean specifically the rectangle anomaly in that picture. Nothing else, I didn`t need to know how bad or schizofrenic he is, or how you got tired after watching 3 minutes of the video.  Just address the 10;11 mark, address the rectangle and colour dissonance along its lines. Simple as that. Don`t call people names behind their back. If you want address hunchbacked, invite him here, or let him reason his refusal.
Emma, yes, I was banned for a week or two from that forum. I was never rude, or accusing anyone personally, but I wanted to talk the moonhoax, and i even couldn`t really start the discussion, when they banned me. I am not denying, but would you expect me to talk about it here on my own initiative? If you were really educated people, or people dealing with science, you would ask me how did I design that helicopter, or what ideas did I put there, what innovations did I plan, or what else I have designed. I f you were really scientists, and engineers, i would gladly see what have you built with your own hands. And you could have asked me the same questions. Where are you space , and aviation engineers? come out, i will gladly discuss airframes anf future aircraft. Why don`t you use a chance?
And you know for yourself that there are atronauts who have talked about how beatiful the stars were from space, and you know that this issue has been addressed by jarrah White and Unforgiven ( or similar, can`t remeber his name precisely).
You know , how NASA has added fire to the conspiracy by declaring no flyby zones, how they have postponed and postponed the return to the moon, joggling from `irrelevant-been there done that, to let`s do it in 2050.
isn`t it amazing that those truly amazing science people were not even interested in having superb star pictures taken on the far side of the moon, . While their 3rd guy was waiting in capsule in lunar orbit, noone of the 2 astronauts was even interested in trying to film or photograph it up there. Want the paper work from Boeing about lunar rover, nope, sorry, we flushed it down the toilet. it is NASA itself that curbs the conspiracy, . Adding more and more fuel to the fire. Where is Baron`s report, even if he was killed by an alien, what happened to NASA`s interest about the report of feasibility of the project .
Talking about the stars I dont mean that by any conditions they could photograph stars, I mean they had a lot of chances  to adopt different lenses and exposure settings, and use very good circumstances, in shadows or behind huge boulders to make  really wonderful pictures. Personally I would really like to photograph satellites of jupiter in vacuum, had I been on the moon. I would be really interested in usinga FLIR camera as well. And I would definitely ask a question where is Westinghouse with their cutting edge videocameras today? What stopped them from accumulating expertize and  be a manufacturer of optics or consumer goods, domestically I mean?
I demand NASA for their future space exploration to ( Mars)use their almighty F-1 engine and continue improving it.  :)
 Now kinda interesting all of you attacking me simultaneously. I would like someone to take my side as well, or I am the only one here? Were you really gentlemen, you wouldn`t even allow me to be cornered by so many of you at the same time.
When addressing me, try to imagine , I am a human, not an indicted person in trial.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 11:49:36 AM by Echnaton »
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett