Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 664642 times)

Online JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #900 on: April 16, 2020, 02:30:44 AM »
I continue to be both baffled and terrified that there is actually an audience for his performances at these briefings.

My father-in-law is a dyed-in-the-wool Fox-News-binging conservative.  For them it really rises no higher than "owning the Libs."  They don't really see this as issues of governance, human rights, etc.  it's really no more significant to them than, say, sports fandom.  And that's what scares me because it leads to a very shallow approach to important issues like public policy, electoral politics, and so forth.

The President's base really does see him as a person who would be an unqualified success if it were not for the perceived conspiracies of his political enemies.  The more I study his career, the more convinced I am that he's an abject failure as most of us would define the term, but is highly successful at excusing those failures.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #901 on: April 16, 2020, 03:04:16 AM »
Could it get worse?
Yes, here you go

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/world-reacts-trump-withdrawing-funding-200415061612025.html

How does cutting the funds help in curbing the disease? How does punishment instead of dialogue and correction make the situation any good? Could it be that the economy is loosing and he wants to put the money "inside America" solely and he is taking advantage of the situation?

The thing to remember is that this is President Trump - the guy who can change his position on any issue on a day-by-day basis while simultaneously denying he's changed anything.

For all we know at the next briefing he'll say he has no plans to cut US funding to WHO and claim it's all a media beat-up. And meanwhile all his die-hard supporters, who've been cheering his toughness at standing up to WHO and China after this briefing, will turn around after the next briefing and point and laugh at all the "Progs" and "Libtards" who got all worked up over nothing after the first announcement.

In the meantime, here's another article about the issue from an Aussie perspective. What's worth noting is that the Australian Government agrees with Trump over many of his criticisms (for example, our Prime Minister and Health Minister were pretty much gobsmacked that WHO supported the reopening of wet markets), but is going to continue funding WHO because of the good work it does with the small Pacific nations in our part of the world: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-16/coronavirus-who-explainer-what-does-trump-funding-decision-mean/12151080

What it shows is something that I think a lot of Americans have forgotten - that it's possible to have a nuanced view on an issue: WHO isn't all good or all bad, and for all that Trump is an erratic narcissist he has valid criticisms of WHO.
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Offline grmcdorman

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #902 on: April 16, 2020, 07:49:04 AM »
That's one of the problematic things about Trump, though: he doesn't do (or in my view, understand) anything but a gloves-off, confrontational approach to any and all issues.

He's also, apparently, announced Vince McMahon as the advisor to reopen the U.S. economy. They'll rassle that virus to the ground! (This is the guy who has continued WWE shows throughout the lockdown, albeit without audiences, unlike all other major sports and public entertainments.) Sigh.

Online JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #903 on: April 16, 2020, 10:20:00 AM »
What it shows is something that I think a lot of Americans have forgotten - that it's possible to have a nuanced view on an issue: WHO isn't all good or all bad, and for all that Trump is an erratic narcissist he has valid criticisms of WHO.

I would be hard-pressed to pin down the point at which nuance left American politics, but there's little point denying that's where we are.  As I write above, I think the political discourse among ordinary Americans has devolved into little more than sports-like fandom.  Polarization naturally follows.

Similarly, I would be hard-pressed to name any international organization that wasn't affected in some visible way by geopolitics.  WHO is no exception.  A notable segment of ordinary Americans reflects an anti-globalist perspective.  Anything labeled a "world" organization is perceived to be governed by a brand of alien politics that they believe the U.S. should neither tolerate nor participate in.  The irony should be evident.  The U.S. meddles all the time in these organizations, just as they suspect other states do.  But somehow it's okay if the U.S. meddles, and does so according to comfortable American political strategies.

From the left-wing American perspective, it's easy to offer a knee-jerk rebuttal that sanctifies the WHO.  The President's critics realize that their base isn't any more open to nuance.  Hence the most effective framing is that of moral outrage:  how dare the President attack a wholesome and especially needful organization in a time of crisis?  It's certainly a persuasive argument, but not necessarily a very sound one.  The delayed U.S. response to an impending pandemic was due to causes we can easily determine to have nothing to do with WHO, so WHO's virtue is moot.  To be fair, the left has played both cards.  They argue both that the President is amoral for levying sanctions that benefit him politically, and that the President's argument is a non sequitur.

Stepping back, the larger American perspective on governance seems to be that everything is, and will always be, just fine.  The economy will self-regulate.  Nothing bad will happen.  And this gives rise to wholly unqualified governors, at all levels of the federal system.  Americans have become accustomed to the idea that politics and government are just games to be played, that have no meaningful effect on outcomes.  The entire American system seems to be thought of as "too big to fail," therefore, somehow, it won't, no matter what actions are taken.  I don't like where that's headed.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #904 on: April 16, 2020, 11:47:56 AM »
Stepping back, the larger American perspective on governance seems to be that everything is, and will always be, just fine.  The economy will self-regulate.  Nothing bad will happen.  And this gives rise to wholly unqualified governors, at all levels of the federal system.  Americans have become accustomed to the idea that politics and government are just games to be played, that have no meaningful effect on outcomes.  The entire American system seems to be thought of as "too big to fail," therefore, somehow, it won't, no matter what actions are taken.  I don't like where that's headed.

I recently read an interesting book about the fall of the (Western) Roman Empire by Peter Heather. Heather does a good job of working his way through the issues that led to the fall of the Empire and debunking the ones that don't work.

For example he shows that the ruling classes were neither decadent or religiously unworldly, and instead fought for the survival of the Empire almost to the end*. Rather than a popular image of Romans accepting the inevitability of the Empire's fall over the course of the 5th century, Heather instead suggests that the main attitudinal problem of the Romans was a cheerfully arrogant assumption that the Empire would survive - the Republic and Empire had fought their way out of several major crises in previous years, this was another major crisis, so they'd fight their way out of this one too. What the Romans didn't realise was that the world had changed in subtle ways over the preceding centuries, which was why methods which had worked in previous centuries failed in the 5th century.

Applying that to the current situation in the USA, it's enough to send a little shiver down the spine. Either the situation can be compared to the fall of the Roman Republic, in which case the USA survives but in a very different form; or the situation can be compared to the fall of the Empire, in which case the USA doesn't survive and the world undergoes a massive geopolitical shift. Either way the outcome will echo down the centuries.

And this is the thing: major realignments of geopolitical power not only cause major upheaval for the people living through them, but they often appear to occur with little warning as events which people think they've all seen before suddenly spiral in a different direction. The collapse of the Bronze Age civilisations in the early 12th century BC, the Macedonian conquest of the Persian Empire, the rise of the Islamic Caliphate and the Russian Revolution are all examples that come to mind of times when the world changed massively in ways which probably wouldn't have been predicted a decade before they occurred.

* Heather fingers the year 468 (only 8 years before the Western Empire's final collapse) as the point of no return. That year the Eastern and Western Empires combined to launch an amphibious attack on the Vandal Kingdom of North Africa. Had it succeeded it would have returned the richest part of the Western Empire to Roman rule, giving it the resources to restore Roman rule in Spain and overawe the barbarian kingdoms in Gaul, and thus giving the Empire a new lease on life. Instead the invasion fleet was trapped by unseasonal winds and destroyed in battle.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #905 on: April 16, 2020, 09:30:12 PM »
I was saying yesterday that my faire boss understands history, but the wrong history to be relevant to the points he's trying to make.  He's spouting a lot of talking points from "his familiarity with state and federal agencies" that are just wrong.
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Offline Bryanpoprobson

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #906 on: April 17, 2020, 04:49:32 AM »
“The curve is flattening, we can start lifting some restrictions now!” = “My parachute has slowed my rate of descent, I can take it off now!”
"Wise men speak because they have something to say!" "Fools speak, because they have to say something!" (Plato)

Online Von_Smith

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #907 on: April 17, 2020, 09:54:35 AM »
“The curve is flattening, we can start lifting some restrictions now!” = “My parachute has slowed my rate of descent, I can take it off now!”

There seems to be a lack of understanding that things like travel restrictions and stay-at-home orders are simply measures to buy time for a more robust public health response -which in the U.S. has yet to sufficiently materialize.  A lot of people still seem to think that COVID-19 will simply blow over on its own if they wait it out, which it eventually would -after millions of people die.  The Spanish flu and Black Death also eventually blew over on their own, but that's not a "resolution" sane people want.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 10:02:34 AM by Von_Smith »

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #908 on: April 17, 2020, 10:59:27 AM »
Doctor Oz apparently believes we can open the schools with no more danger than a 2-3% mortality rate!
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #909 on: April 17, 2020, 11:11:05 AM »
Doctor Oz apparently believes we can open the schools with no more danger than a 2-3% mortality rate!
And the supposedly "pro-life" Republicans will be okay with that because the economy (ie. making rich people richer) must come first.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #910 on: April 17, 2020, 11:32:09 AM »
Doctor Oz apparently believes we can open the schools with no more danger than a 2-3% mortality rate!
And the supposedly "pro-life" Republicans will be okay with that because the economy (ie. making rich people richer) must come first.

Quote
In an interview with Fox News host Tucker Carlson on March 23, 2020, {Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan} Patrick stated that he was willing to risk his life from the coronavirus pandemic if it would avoid an economic shutdown, which he stated would negatively impact subsequent generations. Patrick also stated that he thought many grandparents agreed with him on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Patrick_(politician)#Coronavirus_pandemic

Yee-haw!
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Online JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #911 on: April 17, 2020, 02:51:29 PM »
Let's make a list of the economic policies advocated by this administration and the present Congress and evaluate them according to how much of an advantage they give to current and future generations.  How willing someone is to hypothetically die for another's economy pales in comparison to what that same person is unwilling to actually do to improve another's economy.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Online JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #912 on: April 17, 2020, 02:58:17 PM »
And the supposedly "pro-life" Republicans will be okay with that because the economy (ie. making rich people richer) must come first.

Our state legislature is in special session, virtually, to consider exactly this sort of question.  As you might guess, we have a GOP supermajority.  One of our local NPR reporters is also in the virtual meeting room.  She live-tweeted a couple hours ago that there is a proposal floated to officially shift the state's primary criterion for lifting quarantine restrictions from health to economy.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #913 on: April 17, 2020, 03:39:31 PM »
And the supposedly "pro-life" Republicans will be okay with that because the economy (ie. making rich people richer) must come first.

Our state legislature is in special session, virtually, to consider exactly this sort of question.  As you might guess, we have a GOP supermajority.  One of our local NPR reporters is also in the virtual meeting room.  She live-tweeted a couple hours ago that there is a proposal floated to officially shift the state's primary criterion for lifting quarantine restrictions from health to economy.

I hope voters remember that when round two of the virus begins.

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
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Online JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #914 on: April 17, 2020, 03:52:26 PM »
I hope voters remember that when round two of the virus begins.

Utah politics are ... "special," even when considered among some of the boneheaded things you see in other state governments.  Voting has never really been a factor in Utah politics.  We are heavily gerrymandered.  There is almost no chance of not having a GOP supermajority in the legislature and a GOP governor for the foreseeable future.  We are among the reddest of states, for reasons that would occupy an entire thread on their own.  There is hope in the fact that a friend of mine -- a professor at the law school -- is running for governor on the Democratic ticket.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams