Shenzhou 7?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Even though the Chinese do have the technology to go into space.

Even though this space walk has been done before by both the US and the USSR.

Even though China has done all the preliminary stuff that leads to this point.

And to add to that, the fact that the Chinese are using technology derived from Russian technology, with a proven pedigree spanning decades, to replicate things the Russians have already done with said technology.

Well, looking at the above I think we have pretty much incontrovertible evidence that the Shenzou 7 isn't faked.

[gillianren]

I think the only question is what quantitative analysis of the evidence suggested to him that it was a hoax.  Something beyond "it looks wrong!"  In my experience, with space, "It looks wrong!" means that your expectations are wrong.

[VincentMcConnell]

I am not asking what other people think about the Russian space achievements. I am asking you.

Sure. Why not believe the Russians sent men into space? The evil communist government would have shot Yuri in an unpressurized paper box if it suited them. They didn't care about their cosmonauts. That kind of "who cares" attitude makes me think it's probable he went up.

Add to the fact the Chinese are using space ship and space suit technology influenced by directly by Russian technology, which has a proven pedigree that spans decades.

What one person can make of technology is different than another.

The Chinese carried out their space walk using technology derived from proven Russian technology that has accomplished identical tasks to the chinese decades before. Simply put, the technology used by the Chinese is undoubtably capable of performing a space walk. Do you doubt this is the case?

No. I don't doubt that. But you're still offering a straw man. Put it this way: I can play Orbiter. I understand how to get the technicalities to work, advanced transfers to different orbits etc. That software is proven to work. Put it in the hands of my Grandma, though, and all the sudden, What the hell does retro-grade mean? It's not the equipment. It's the operator.

[VincentMcConnell]

You all act like you are totally sure China has the means to get into space and do it manned. Prove it. You demand proof from me, I do the same. How do you know China has the ability to get into space? Are your facts based on the data they release?

[gillianren]

Vincent, are you aware that your arguments against the reality of a Chinese spacewalk are nearly identical to your arguments against the reality of Apollo?

[Jason Thompson]

The evil communist government would have shot Yuri in an unpressurized paper box if it suited them. They didn't care about their cosmonauts.

This is a very unfair characterisation of the Soviet space program. They put a LOT of effort into testing the Vostok spacecraft to make sure it was safe. They designed it so that it would naturally come back to Earth on its own after ten days if the retros failed. They definitely DID care about their cosmonauts. Voskhod 1 is the first and only time safety was significantly compromised by cramming three men into a spacecraft without spacesuits, but all three men went up voluntarily. A few years later when this attitude resulted in the death of the Soyuz 11 crew they changed procedures to ensure that all crew could wear spacesuits during flight.

[VincentMcConnell]

Vincent, are you aware that your arguments against the reality of a Chinese spacewalk are nearly identical to your arguments against the reality of Apollo?

No, they're really not. I am asking where you got the data that China has the capability to put man in space. Did you get this from information CHINA released or was their independent support. If there was, what was it and why was it evidence?

[Jason Thompson]

You all act like you are totally sure China has the means to get into space and do it manned. Prove it.

That's not how this works and you know it. The burden of proof is not on us. It is on you. You claim it was faked. Prove it. We claim it was genuine. That is the default position until proven otherwise.

How do you know China has the ability to get into space? Are your facts based on the data they release?

There's your own straw man.

And by the way I am STILL waiting for that time reference in the Shnzhou 7 video. The one you promised you'd get right on at least twice and have still failed to do so. In the time it has taken you to write your various replies you could have easily scanned through a ten minute video and pointed to the exact moment you were referring to way back when.

[Jason Thompson]

If there was, what was it and why was it evidence?
[/quote]

Stop shifting the burden of proof, Vincent. YOU started the thread claiming YOU had evidence that Shenzhou 7 was faked. Present it. It is not our burden of proof to show it was genuine.

[VincentMcConnell]

This is a very unfair characterisation of the Soviet space program. They put a LOT of effort into testing the Vostok spacecraft to make sure it was safe. They designed it so that it would naturally come back to Earth on its own after ten days if the retros failed. They definitely DID care about their cosmonauts. Voskhod 1 is the first and only time safety was significantly compromised by cramming three men into a spacecraft without spacesuits, but all three men went up voluntarily. A few years later when this attitude resulted in the death of the Soyuz 11 crew they changed procedures to ensure that all crew could wear spacesuits during flight.

The Vostok had a lot of problems. On Yuri's flight, I'd say the most dangerous one was the fact that the SM wouldn't separate from the CM... In future Russian space missions or in American missions, when has a stage failed to separate? You'd think that's not hard to avoid in preflight testing. Anyway, this thread is not about Russia's problems and lack of concern for cosmonauts. It's about Shenzhou and I want to know where everyone got the info that China is totally capable of putting a man into space.

[VincentMcConnell]

That's not how this works and you know it. The burden of proof is not on us. It is on you. You claim it was faked. Prove it. We claim it was genuine. That is the default position until proven otherwise.

I have given my arguments for why I don't believe it. You brought for the claim that China has the capability to put man into space. That was not part of the original debate, therefore it is YOUR claim. Your original argument. Debates work on the premise that each side must offer evidence for their stance and be convincing. You said China has the capability to put man into space. Until you provide a source of that information, it's just a bald assertion and you might as well retract it completely, for it is useless.

And by the way I am STILL waiting for that time reference in the Shnzhou 7 video. The one you promised you'd get right on at least twice and have still failed to do so. In the time it has taken you to write your various replies you could have easily scanned through a ten minute video and pointed to the exact moment you were referring to way back when.

OK. On to page one...

[Jason Thompson]

The Vostok had a lot of problems. On Yuri's flight, I'd say the most dangerous one was the fact that the SM wouldn't separate from the CM... In future Russian space missions or in American missions, when has a stage failed to separate?

Voskhod 2 for one. American spacecraft used a different system for separation.

You'd think that's not hard to avoid in preflight testing.

There was no sign it did happen in preflight testing. It was a surprise to all when it occurred on Gagarin's flight.

The fact that there were problems doesn't mean the Soviet government didn't care about their cosmonauts any more than the fact that a stuck thruster on Gemini 8, a flash fire on Apollo 1 and an exploding oxygen tank on Apollo 13 means NASA didn't care about their astronauts.

Anyway, this thread is not about Russia's problems and lack of concern for cosmonauts.

No, it's about YOUR claim that the Shenzhou 7 video was faked. Do you plan to go back to that and provide the evidence you've been promising for some time now?

[VincentMcConnell]

OK. A few minutes into the EVA video and I've noticed one instance that is similar but not identical to what I remember seeing.
At 3:13, Zhai is moving his lower wrists and hands. His legs are away from the craft and he makes no movements below his center of mass. The only movement appears to be his hands as he works on the tether. Over the course of a few seconds, his legs start to float aimlessly "upward" relative to the camera's frame. There appears to be no movement in that area. Why did his legs float?

[VincentMcConnell]

No, it's about YOUR claim that the Shenzhou 7 video was faked. Do you plan to go back to that and provide the evidence you've been promising for some time now?

I have already provided my evidence, just supplied you with a possible time stamp and covered my side of this debate thoroughly. You brought forth a part of this argument that does not pertain specifically to Shenzhou 7. You claim that China has the ability to put man into space. Do you have any evidence for that? Please answer that simple question.

[VincentMcConnell]

It is now 3AM where I live. I will be back on most likely tomorrow.