Anybody know what this gunk is?

[AstroBrant]

Someone on YouTube asked me about this flocky looking stuff on the panels to the right of the middle RCS quad, next to the S-band antenna. I don't see it on any of the other panels.
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-113-18331HR.jpg

This picture at rendezvous also shows it:
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-122-19533.jpg

Any ideas?



 

[LunarOrbit]

Looks like lunar dust too me.

[BertieSlack]

Any ideas?

My first thought was that maybe the surface coating of those side panels had blistered. But it's weird that whatever it is covers the whole of that side of the ascent stage but doesn't seem to appear anywhere else (except the expected blistering on the plume deflectors). Why would just that portion blister? But, equally, why would just those portions get dusty? Could there be some local electro-static charging? In other words, I don't have a clue.
I tried to find photos of Orion in lunar orbit after undocking before DOI, but no luck finding any so far that show that portion of the LM. The stuff appears to still be there after ascent before rendezvous with Casper.

[BertieSlack]

I just had a look at ALSJ. It seems that Houston asked Charlie to take the photo of that part of the ascent stage:

119:35:53 England: Okay, and we'd like you to take pictures of the ablated paint, Charlie.
119:36:00 Duke: Okay, I'll do that. I'll do it at f/8, at about 15 feet.
119:36:11 England: Okay, we'd like f/8 at 250(th of a second exposure) and f/11 at 250 of all of the ablated surfaces.
119:36:20 Duke: Okay. (Pause) (Laughing) If I can bend back that far, Tony.

I've only done a quick skim-read of the EVA transcript up that point, but I can't find any indication that John & Charlie themselves had noticed this after they came down the ladder, so presumably it had already been noticed in lunar orbit, or maybe even during trans-lunar coast. I can't find the full transcript of that earlier portion of the mission.

After Charlie takes the photo, he has this exchange with Houston:

119:37:05 England: Okay, and when you're over at the S-band, we have a couple of more pictures of that one.
119:37:11 Duke: I just got it, Tony.
119:37:14 England: Okay, there's a particular surface on it we're interested in.
119:37:21 Duke: Stand by. Okay, just a minute.
119:37:26 Young: Let me try it through a few of these little craters here, Charlie. You know, it's hard to get to where you are from here. (Chuckles)
119:37:39 Duke: Okay, the ablated paint surfaces: there were only two, and it's the two above the ascent tank. (Pause) John, you were coming absolutely straight down when you hit. Okay, Tony, go ahead with the S-band.
119:37:54 England: Okay, we want you to take a picture of the white side of the yoke. The yoke has a black side and a white side. (Pause) And on the white side, we want at 1/250th, f/5.6, f/8, and f/11.
119:38:13 Duke: Okay, I've got the f/8 and f/11. I'll do the 5.6 one.
119:38:17 England: Good show.

And it looks the same stuff is on the corresponding panels on the other side of the ascent stage: https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-113-18336HR.jpg

[Count Zero]

I wonder if it's the stuff they saw during Transposition and Docking on the way to the Moon:

Apollo Flight Journal

003 49 12 Duke: Okay, Gordy. So when we pitched around, I'd like to tell you a little bit about something we saw on the LM. When we were coming around out about 30 or 40 feet [9 to 12 metres] out, we had a lot of white particles. Looked like it was coming out from around the Lunar Module. Quite a number of them. And, as we got closer, it looked like to me that the primary - most of the particles were coming bet - from between the ascent propellant tank over quad one and this omni antenna. And it looks like they was being jetted out from either some outgassing or something, and we assumed it's Mylar but are not convinced of that.

003 50 05 Fullerton: We copy that, Charlie.

003 50 10 Duke: The only reason we comment on it, it just seemed like there was a awful lot of them.

Picture:  AS16-118-18875

[Kiwi]

I wonder if it's the stuff they saw during Transposition and Docking on the way to the Moon

It is indeed.

The Apollo 16 Mission Summary at Apollo By the Numbers
https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4029/SP-4029.htm
https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4029/Apollo_16a_Summary.htm
says:

   During the CSM/LM docking, light colored particles were noticed coming from the LM area. The particles were unexplained. At 007:18, the crew reported a stream of particles emitting from the LM in the vicinity of aluminum close-out panel 51, which covered the Mylar insulation over reaction control system A. This panel was located below the docking target on the +Z face of the LM ascent stage.
   To determine systems status, the crew entered the LM at 008:17 and powered up. All systems were normal and the LM was powered down at 008:52. The CM television was turned on at 008:45 to give the mission control center a view of the particle emission. In order to point the high gain antenna, panel 51 was rotated out of sunlight and a marked decrease was then noted in the quantity of particles. On the television picture, the source of the particles appeared to be a growth of grass-like particles at the base of the panel. The television was turned off at 009:06. Results of the investigation determined that the particles were shredded thermal paint, and that the degraded thermal protection due to the paint shredding would have no effect on subsequent LM operations.

The Apollo 16 Mission Report,
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/a16mr.html
page 14-41, describes the flaking paint on the thermal shield panels, and diagram 14-26 shows that the panels are the same ones indicated in post #1.

14.2 LUNAR MODULE ANOMALIES

14.2.1 Paint Flaking From Thermal Shield Panels

   Just prior to transposition and docking, particles were coming off the thermal shield panels on the minus Y side of the ascent stage. The particles caused the panels shown in figure 14-26 to have a shredded appearance. (The aft equipment rack thermal shields and the insulation dangling from the bottom of the ascent stage shown in figure 7-1 are discussed in section 14.2.2.) The paint flakes interferred with star sightings and were potential optical surface contaminants. Thermal tests conducted on specimens removed from a lunar module panel demonstrated that the paint on the panels starts to peel at approximately minus 120° F. The predicted minimum temperature of the panels during the mission is minus 270° F.
   Effective with the Apollo 15 spacecraft, changes were made to the vehicle to minimize the reaction control system propellant temperatures for the 72-hour lunar stay design case. One change was that 16 panels on the ascent stage were painted white. Subsequently, a more effective change was made by the addition of tank insulation. The effect of total loss of the paint on the panels results in a maximum reaction control system propellant temperature increase of approximately 2° F.
   The corrective action for Apollo 17 will be to remove the paint from the panels since the paint has little thermal value.
   This anomaly is closed.

There might be a hint of the problem arising with the Apollo 15 LM in this photo from the mission, AS15-87-11840.
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a15/AS15-87-11840HR.jpg

Of the Apollo 16 photos of the panels, AS16-113-18331, 18333, and 18337 are a little unclear due to poor focus or camera shake, and it's a good thing that Mission Control asked Charlie Duke to bracket his exposures (f5.6, f8 and f11 at 1/250 second), because some are better than others.

The following photos are sharpest:

AS16-107-17436 https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/AS16-107-17436HR.jpg
AS16-107-17437 https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/AS16-107-17437HR.jpg
AS16-113-18332 https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/AS16-113-18332HR.jpg
AS16-113-18334 https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/AS16-113-18334HR.jpg
AS16-113-18336 https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/AS16-113-18336HR.jpg
AS16-113-18338 https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a16/AS16-113-18338HR.jpg

[Count Zero]

Thanks Doug!  I knew that if anyone could sort this one out, it'd be you.

On a personal note, I just realized that it was 10 years ago last month that you & Andy drove to New Plymouth to meet me & Steve for lunch.  Egad, where does the time go?

[ajv]

Really?!? Wow!

I remember rushing around getting some pictures of shadows. The photos in the mission report on the old site have disappeared. Is PhantomWolf still around on any forums?

[Kiwi]

Hi Count Zero and ajv.

I haven't heard from PhantomWolf since close to the ten years. I think he tied the knot soon after we met him, so maybe also got tied up with being a daddy.

The photos of us that he put in that thread were hosted on his Lokishammer web page,
http://lokishammer.dragon-rider.org/X/
which is now unobtainable. However, his Apollo hoax-debunking webpage is still going, although it looks like he hasn't continued developing it for a long time.
http://apollo-history-and-hoax.com

However, he did very thorough job of debunking some of Bart Sibrel's rubbish on this page, which is well worth studying:
http://apollo-history-and-hoax.com/Apollo11/index.html

[smartcooky]

Really?!? Wow!

I remember rushing around getting some pictures of shadows. The photos in the mission report on the old site have disappeared. Is PhantomWolf still around on any forums?

There is a poster called Phantom Wolf on ISF and he posted about midday today our time (so still active)

His signature has a link to this page - http://www.apollo-history-and-hoax.com/

So I'm guessing its the same person

You can PM him or if you like I can do it for you