Radiation

[Abaddon]

You guys have nothing.  Character assassination is the only tool you bring to the table.  Not one single documented rebuttal.  I would be ashamed of myself if I were in your shoes.

Here you go.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170821064300/https://www.braeunig.us/apollo/VABraddose.htm

Although it is extremely unlikely that you will understand it. It has graphs.

[timfinch]

I have presented documented evidence.  Do me the same courtesy.  In your rebuttal demonstrate that it is not merely your opinion but that it is corroborated by a reputable source.

I could do that, but any such documentation would contain lots of graphs and we have already established that you are unable to read those.

Show me the data that proves cislunar space was less than .22 mgy/day at anytime during solar cycle 20..
Show me the data that prove lunar orbit was less than cislunar space during anytime.
Show me the data that proves there is a low radiation path through the VAB and include the expected dose rates for a lunar transit.
Show me the data that indicates ingestion of moon dust is not an immediate health hazard.
 

[Luke Pemberton]

Realizing radiation diminishes as a function of distance, it is safe to assume that the surface is indeed higher.  In the articles that I have posted and reposted several times, states that the GCR and Solar flux is producing a neutron flux that is elevating lunar orbital radiation.

Yet the same authors from the CRaTER team tell us that the levels at the surface are no more that that received by a uranium miner or X-ray technician in one year. Are you going to acknowledge this point?

They did not say it was from naturally occurring radioactive isotopes in moon rocks.

Yet you have been arguing the dust is radioactive, prohibitively so. Have you not?  You are the one that presented this argument in context of GCR producing fission products. Did you not? If you cannot understand the distinction between radiation and radioactivity, don't lambaste others after the event.

Do yourself a favor and read the definition of a logarithmic graph.  This is truly difficult watching you make a fool of yourself.

And despite this, you've even computed the median data yourself, and found that the value fell below your threshold that you misread from the graph. I don't think you have a right to call anyone a fool seaman Tim.

[Abaddon]

I have presented documented evidence.  Do me the same courtesy.  In your rebuttal demonstrate that it is not merely your opinion but that it is corroborated by a reputable source.

I could do that, but any such documentation would contain lots of graphs and we have already established that you are unable to read those.

Show me the data that proves cislunar space was less than .22 mgy/day at anytime during solar cycle 20..

You posted that data yourself, you simply couldn't read it correctly.

Show me the data that prove lunar orbit was less than cislunar space during anytime.

Irrelevant.

Show me the data that proves there is a low radiation path through the VAB and include the expected dose rates for a lunar transit.

Done, but you are incapable of understanding it.

Show me the data that indicates ingestion of moon dust is not an immediate health hazard.

Wow. There is such a thing as a stupid question. Your claim is that lunar regolith is sufficiently toxic so as to cause instant death. We know that is a load of rot.
 

[Luke Pemberton]

Here you go.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170821064300/https://www.braeunig.us/apollo/VABraddose.htm

... and there was I trying to get past the point radiation versus radioactivity, and you throw this into the mix. Thanks 

Although it is extremely unlikely that you will understand it. It has graphs.

That's blown it. We're going to spend the next 2000000 posts explaining the graphs to him now.

[timfinch]

You guys have nothing.  Character assassination is the only tool you bring to the table.  Not one single documented rebuttal.  I would be ashamed of myself if I were in your shoes.

Here you go.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170821064300/https://www.braeunig.us/apollo/VABraddose.htm

Although it is extremely unlikely that you will understand it. It has graphs.

This is government produced propaganda that I have read thoroughly.  Consider this statement from your referenced material   ****If SPAN detected that a large solar flare was imminent, there was a few hours' advance notice of the particle flux. This was adequate time for the astronauts on the Moon to get back to the LM, take off, rendezvous with the CSM, and take cover as best they could. While in lunar orbit, the Moon would protect the astronauts for half of each orbit. At other times the spacecraft would be turned so the bulk of the service module was between the astronauts and the incoming particles. The astronauts had a handheld Geiger counter so they could find the safest spot in the command module cabin should they have to ride out a solar flare.****  Realizing a solar flare travels at the speed of light, it takes eight minutes for the light from a solar flare to reach Earth.

[Abaddon]

You guys have nothing.  Character assassination is the only tool you bring to the table.  Not one single documented rebuttal.  I would be ashamed of myself if I were in your shoes.

Here you go.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170821064300/https://www.braeunig.us/apollo/VABraddose.htm

Although it is extremely unlikely that you will understand it. It has graphs.

This is government produced propaganda that I have read thoroughly.  Consider this statement from your referenced material   ****If SPAN detected that a large solar flare was imminent, there was a few hours' advance notice of the particle flux. This was adequate time for the astronauts on the Moon to get back to the LM, take off, rendezvous with the CSM, and take cover as best they could. While in lunar orbit, the Moon would protect the astronauts for half of each orbit. At other times the spacecraft would be turned so the bulk of the service module was between the astronauts and the incoming particles. The astronauts had a handheld Geiger counter so they could find the safest spot in the command module cabin should they have to ride out a solar flare.****  Realizing a solar flare travels at the speed of light, it takes eight minutes for the light from a solar flare to reach Earth.

The light perhaps, but how long does it take for the particles to arrive? I know and you clearly do not.

ETA: And besides, there were no significant flares on any Apollo mission so your objection is moot.

[molesworth]

You guys have nothing.  Character assassination is the only tool you bring to the table.  Not one single documented rebuttal.  I would be ashamed of myself if I were in your shoes.

I'm trying to be as objective as possible, but I think you are wrong on all points.  The major contributors to this thread have provided extensive information and corroborating data to refute your claims.

There has been very little in the way of attacks on your character (as opposed to pointing out your lack of expertise, which is not "character assassination"!) while you have indulged in numerous ad-hom attacks on people.

Like many people here, I have strengths and weaknesses, and the reason I'm not getting into discussions about radiation levels, dose rates or the like is because I am not an expert.  However, I'm willing to acknowledge that fact, and more than willing to learn.  I can't obviously convince you that you're wrong, but it might be worth you actually considering that possibility, and taking the opportunity to learn from some of the people here who are experts in these areas.

[timfinch]

What is this but a damn lie?

[Luke Pemberton]

This is government produced propaganda that I have read thoroughly.  Consider this statement from your referenced material   ****If SPAN detected that a large solar flare was imminent, there was a few hours' advance notice of the particle flux. This was adequate time for the astronauts on the Moon to get back to the LM, take off, rendezvous with the CSM, and take cover as best they could. While in lunar orbit, the Moon would protect the astronauts for half of each orbit. At other times the spacecraft would be turned so the bulk of the service module was between the astronauts and the incoming particles. The astronauts had a handheld Geiger counter so they could find the safest spot in the command module cabin should they have to ride out a solar flare.****  Realizing a solar flare travels at the speed of light, it takes eight minutes for the light from a solar flare to reach Earth.

The point being the word imminent. There are warning signs of shock generated SPEs. There is lead prior to the main flux being detected - a little similar to minor tremors prior to volcanic eruptions. So yes, you could take evasive action before the main flux of protons arrives. Have you ever studied the proton flux during a solar storm? There are also other indicators prior to the SPE. Do you know what they are?

Despite this, there were no recorded SPEs during the Apollo missions. There was a major SPE between missions. I guess the NASA guys were pretty good with their risk analysis.

You're an expert on plasma physics now then?

[Luke Pemberton]

What is this but a damn lie?

Why is it a lie?

[timfinch]

You guys have nothing.  Character assassination is the only tool you bring to the table.  Not one single documented rebuttal.  I would be ashamed of myself if I were in your shoes.

I'm trying to be as objective as possible, but I think you are wrong on all points.  The major contributors to this thread have provided extensive information and corroborating data to refute your claims.

There has been very little in the way of attacks on your character (as opposed to pointing out your lack of expertise, which is not "character assassination"!) while you have indulged in numerous ad-hom attacks on people.

Like many people here, I have strengths and weaknesses, and the reason I'm not getting into discussions about radiation levels, dose rates or the like is because I am not an expert.  However, I'm willing to acknowledge that fact, and more than willing to learn.  I can't obviously convince you that you're wrong, but it might be worth you actually considering that possibility, and taking the opportunity to learn from some of the people here who are experts in these areas.

I could and would learn if their arguments had substance.  They spend their time distracting and deflecting rather than engaging.  They have nothing more than rhetoric and in their heart they can see the truth if they can read the written word.  Remember I did not write these articles.  I simply posted them.

[molesworth]

What is this but a damn lie?

Ummm, why do you think that?

Looking at the launch, orbit and TLI trajectory in three dimensions shows a straightforward path which avoids the most dangerous parts of the VAB.

[Abaddon]

What is this but a damn lie?

3D spatial reasoning. You simply cannot figure it out, can you?

[timfinch]

What is this but a damn lie?

Why is it a lie?

The deception is obvious.  The Braeunig graph implies the path skirted the radiation area when in fact the path was <10^6 radiation for the entirety of the transit (or thereabouts)