Radiation

[Jason Thompson]

Realizing a solar flare travels at the speed of light,

The EM part yes, but the particle shower that is the real hazard, by definition, cannot travel at the speed of light. Why do you insist on ignoring this basic rule of physics?

[Jason Thompson]

Show me the data that proves cislunar space was less than .22 mgy/day at anytime during solar cycle 20.

Tim, for heaven's sake, by definition it must have been. Your whole point was based on a paper that claimed the average radiaiton level in cislunar space was 0.22mGy/day. By definition that means at some period during the time over which those data were collected (which happened to be the time of the Apollo missions) it must have been either above or below that level.

Show me the data that proves there is a low radiation path through the VAB and include the expected dose rates for a lunar transit.

You have been shown, sveral times, a few examples of the path through the bet that skimmed the edges rather than going right through them. It's a 3D problem but you insist on treating the belts as some unavoidable problem.

Show me the data that indicates ingestion of moon dust is not an immediate health hazard.

No, that's not how it works. You brought it up, you provide the data that says it was an immediate hazard. Not a long term exposure hazard, and immediate one.

[Jason Thompson]

http://stockcharts.com/articles/mailbag/2014/11/what-is-the-difference-between-a-logarithmic-and-arithmetic-chart.html

I asked for your answer not some random website that does not address the specific graph I posted.

What is YOUR answer?

That is NOT an answer. I didn't ask you to post other random graphs, I asked you about the one I posted.

What is YOUR answer?

Tim, why are you entirely unable to grasp the point of this log scale business?

Where is your example of the 'exponential' scale you claim was used? The one that goes up like a log scale but with the numbers between the powers of ten equidistant? The one where the distance between 10 and 20 is the same as the distance between 300 and 400, or 8000 and 9000, or 0.005 and 0.006? That is what you were insisting the CraTer graph was, after all.

Or, prove that the CraTer graph is not a log scale. Show us exactly what makes you conclude that.

[AtomicDog]

I thought it was obvious but let me spell it out for you.  The lunar lander had no means of decontamination of the astronauts reentering the lander.  It would not have been possible for them not to have inhaled lunar dust and been exposed to the alpha laden particles therein.  They would have known of the dangers and would never expose the astronauts to such a risk if they had indeed landed on the moon.

"Alpha laden particles"? You don't know anything about the basic nature of alpha particles, do you?

[Abaddon]

http://stockcharts.com/articles/mailbag/2014/11/what-is-the-difference-between-a-logarithmic-and-arithmetic-chart.html

I asked for your answer not some random website that does not address the specific graph I posted.

What is YOUR answer?

That is NOT an answer. I didn't ask you to post other random graphs, I asked you about the one I posted.

What is YOUR answer?

Tim, why are you entirely unable to grasp the point of this log scale business?

Where is your example of the 'exponential' scale you claim was used? The one that goes up like a log scale but with the numbers between the powers of ten equidistant? The one where the distance between 10 and 20 is the same as the distance between 300 and 400, or 8000 and 9000, or 0.005 and 0.006? That is what you were insisting the CraTer graph was, after all.

Or, prove that the CraTer graph is not a log scale. Show us exactly what makes you conclude that.

Ah. See attached. Timfinch posted a graph as an example of a log graph. I reposted the exact same graph with the minor divisions removed. Timfinch was bamboozled by that. He clearly has no clue what he is talking about.

[Abaddon]

I thought it was obvious but let me spell it out for you.  The lunar lander had no means of decontamination of the astronauts reentering the lander.  It would not have been possible for them not to have inhaled lunar dust and been exposed to the alpha laden particles therein.  They would have known of the dangers and would never expose the astronauts to such a risk if they had indeed landed on the moon.

"Alpha laden particles"? You don't know anything about the basic nature of alpha particles, do you?

BWAHAHAHAHA. WTF?

ETA: Seriously, i missed that clanger. I am still laughing.

[Luke Pemberton]

"Alpha laden particles"? You don't know anything about the basic nature of alpha particles, do you?

I saw it, but by that point I couldn't be bothered. Thanks for bringing it up. I was trying to imagine a particle that was carrying alpha particles. That's the only mental image I could picture in my head.

[timfinch]

Realizing a solar flare travels at the speed of light,

The EM part yes, but the particle shower that is the real hazard, by definition, cannot travel at the speed of light. Why do you insist on ignoring this basic rule of physics?

There are many kinds of eruptions on the sun. Solar flares and coronal mass ejections both involve gigantic explosions of energy, but are otherwise quite different. The two phenomena do sometimes occur at the same time – indeed the strongest flares are almost always correlated with coronal mass ejections – but they emit different things, they look and travel differently, and they have different effects near planets.

Both eruptions are created when the motion of the sun’s interior contorts its own magnetic fields. Like the sudden release of a twisted rubber band, the magnetic fields explosively realign, driving vast amounts of energy into space. This phenomenon can create a sudden flash of light -- a solar flare. Flares can last minutes to hours and they contain tremendous amounts of energy. Traveling at the speed of light, it takes eight minutes for the light from a solar flare to reach Earth. Some of the energy released in the flare also accelerates very high energy particles that can reach Earth in tens of minutes.

The magnetic contortions can also create a different kind of explosion that hurls solar matter into space. These are the coronal mass ejections, also known as CMEs. One can think of the explosions using the physics of a cannon. The flare is like the muzzle flash, which can be seen anywhere in the vicinity. The CME is like the cannonball, propelled forward in a single, preferential direction, this mass ejected from the barrel only affecting a targeted area. This is the CME—an immense cloud of magnetized particles hurled into space. Traveling over a million miles per hour, the hot material called plasma takes up to three days to reach Earth. The differences between the two types of explosions can be seen through solar telescopes, with flares appearing as a bright light and CMEs appearing as enormous fans of gas swelling into space.

[timfinch]

http://stockcharts.com/articles/mailbag/2014/11/what-is-the-difference-between-a-logarithmic-and-arithmetic-chart.html

I asked for your answer not some random website that does not address the specific graph I posted.

What is YOUR answer?

That is NOT an answer. I didn't ask you to post other random graphs, I asked you about the one I posted.

What is YOUR answer?

Tim, why are you entirely unable to grasp the point of this log scale business?

Where is your example of the 'exponential' scale you claim was used? The one that goes up like a log scale but with the numbers between the powers of ten equidistant? The one where the distance between 10 and 20 is the same as the distance between 300 and 400, or 8000 and 9000, or 0.005 and 0.006? That is what you were insisting the CraTer graph was, after all.

Or, prove that the CraTer graph is not a log scale. Show us exactly what makes you conclude that.

Ah. See attached. Timfinch posted a graph as an example of a log graph. I reposted the exact same graph with the minor divisions removed. Timfinch was bamboozled by that. He clearly has no clue what he is talking about.

Try reading this out loud, slowly.  You can do it, I know you can.

[Luke Pemberton]

Traveling over a million miles per hour, the hot material called plasma takes up to three days to reach Earth. The differences between the two types of explosions can be seen through solar telescopes, with flares appearing as a bright light and CMEs appearing as enormous fans of gas swelling into space.

In which time the EM component of the CME has reached the Earth, because that has travelled at the speed of light. This EM component provides the warning. The plasma component that takes 3 days is the dangerous plasma proton flux. This give the astronauts 3 days - 8 and a it minutes to take evasive action.

[timfinch]

KREEP
The lunar geochemical component KREEP contains trace amounts of the radioactive elements Thorium and Uranium. Regolith dust formed from this rock is a serious health hazard.

The radiation given off is Alpha particles (helium nuclei) and they do not penetrate very effectively. The direct radiation is stopped by any pressure vessel wall and even a well designed layer of spacesuit material. The problem is that if the dust is ingested into the human body, the particles will lay directly on lung or intestine tissue and are carcinogenic. Ingestion of the dust must therefore be rigorously limited.

KREEP is concentrated in the Oceanus Procellarum (Ocean of Storms) and Mare Imbrium (Sea of Rains) with a major concentration south of Crater Copernicus. This region covers about 40% of the Earth-facing side of the Moon. Based on the small number of lunar samples returned, low KREEP regions measure 8% or less of the radioactive elements in their dust compared to the high KREEP regions. With current technology, the entire high KREEP region is not acceptable for any long-term human settlement or manned mining operation.

The high KREEP region contains many sites of interest to science, particularly those of volcanic origin. Even short scientific expeditions there will require special procedures to prevent ingestion of dust and the removal of dust from all returning equipment.

Radon Gas
Another source of dangerous radiation is the radon gas that is created in the decay of trace amounts of uranium found naturally in lunar rocks. This gas is very heavy and concentrates in low areas. This type of radiation is easily stopped by even a thin layer of material, but radon is carcinogenic if ingested directly into the body.

Even though sensitive scientific equipment has been able to detect radon on Luna, the quantity of radon gas is such that it can be ignored. The lunar atmosphere is so thin that the most massive component, Argon, is present in only 30,000 particles per cubic centimeter, that is 2 trillionths of a gram per cubic meter. Radon is so scarce that it is not even mentioned in the list of components in the lunar atmosphere article. See the Moon Fact Sheet from NASA.

Radon has also been detected from lunar outgassing events.

http://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Radiation_Problem

[onebigmonkey]

Realizing a solar flare travels at the speed of light,

The EM part yes, but the particle shower that is the real hazard, by definition, cannot travel at the speed of light. Why do you insist on ignoring this basic rule of physics?

There are many kinds of eruptions on the sun. Solar flares and coronal mass ejections both involve gigantic explosions of energy, but are otherwise quite different. The two phenomena do sometimes occur at the same time – indeed the strongest flares are almost always correlated with coronal mass ejections – but they emit different things, they look and travel differently, and they have different effects near planets.

Both eruptions are created when the motion of the sun’s interior contorts its own magnetic fields. Like the sudden release of a twisted rubber band, the magnetic fields explosively realign, driving vast amounts of energy into space. This phenomenon can create a sudden flash of light -- a solar flare. Flares can last minutes to hours and they contain tremendous amounts of energy. Traveling at the speed of light, it takes eight minutes for the light from a solar flare to reach Earth. Some of the energy released in the flare also accelerates very high energy particles that can reach Earth in tens of minutes.

The magnetic contortions can also create a different kind of explosion that hurls solar matter into space. These are the coronal mass ejections, also known as CMEs. One can think of the explosions using the physics of a cannon. The flare is like the muzzle flash, which can be seen anywhere in the vicinity. The CME is like the cannonball, propelled forward in a single, preferential direction, this mass ejected from the barrel only affecting a targeted area. This is the CME—an immense cloud of magnetized particles hurled into space. Traveling over a million miles per hour, the hot material called plasma takes up to three days to reach Earth. The differences between the two types of explosions can be seen through solar telescopes, with flares appearing as a bright light and CMEs appearing as enormous fans of gas swelling into space.

You need to post your sources

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/the-difference-between-flares-and-cmes

and read them.

[Luke Pemberton]

With current technology, the entire high KREEP region is not acceptable for any long-term human settlement or manned mining operation.

Apollo missions were short term. This article is about long term missions to the moon.

[timfinch]

Realizing a solar flare travels at the speed of light,

The EM part yes, but the particle shower that is the real hazard, by definition, cannot travel at the speed of light. Why do you insist on ignoring this basic rule of physics?

There are many kinds of eruptions on the sun. Solar flares and coronal mass ejections both involve gigantic explosions of energy, but are otherwise quite different. The two phenomena do sometimes occur at the same time – indeed the strongest flares are almost always correlated with coronal mass ejections – but they emit different things, they look and travel differently, and they have different effects near planets.

Both eruptions are created when the motion of the sun’s interior contorts its own magnetic fields. Like the sudden release of a twisted rubber band, the magnetic fields explosively realign, driving vast amounts of energy into space. This phenomenon can create a sudden flash of light -- a solar flare. Flares can last minutes to hours and they contain tremendous amounts of energy. Traveling at the speed of light, it takes eight minutes for the light from a solar flare to reach Earth. Some of the energy released in the flare also accelerates very high energy particles that can reach Earth in tens of minutes.

The magnetic contortions can also create a different kind of explosion that hurls solar matter into space. These are the coronal mass ejections, also known as CMEs. One can think of the explosions using the physics of a cannon. The flare is like the muzzle flash, which can be seen anywhere in the vicinity. The CME is like the cannonball, propelled forward in a single, preferential direction, this mass ejected from the barrel only affecting a targeted area. This is the CME—an immense cloud of magnetized particles hurled into space. Traveling over a million miles per hour, the hot material called plasma takes up to three days to reach Earth. The differences between the two types of explosions can be seen through solar telescopes, with flares appearing as a bright light and CMEs appearing as enormous fans of gas swelling into space.

You need to post your sources

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/the-difference-between-flares-and-cmes

and read them.

I am confused.  Are you implying the solar flares are harmless and it is the CME's that pose the greatest danger to astronauts?

[MBDK]

What is this but a damn lie?

Why is it a lie?

The deception is obvious.  The Braeunig graph implies the path skirted the radiation area when in fact the path was <10^6 radiation for the entirety of the transit (or thereabouts)

Actually, the only deception comes from you.  The graph was presented as a general illustration to convey the mission's flight path as it circumvented the most intense portions of the VABs.  Because you found a graph that contains more detail than the one provided has nothing to do with the actual information used for computation.  You claim to have read the article thoroughly, yet seem to have missed, disregarded or completely whiffed at the understanding of this snippet prior to the table and graphs:

"There is no need to show all the data in this article. An abridged version is shown below, which includes electron fluxes for the first 30 minutes of flight following translunar injection (TLI). This is enough data to allow demonstration of the procedures used in this analysis. The actual analysis used matrices that contained a total of over 8,000 flux values."

P.S.  He also has a link earlier that allows you to gather all the data he used.