Author Topic: Radiation  (Read 938709 times)

Offline Mag40

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2595 on: April 21, 2018, 04:20:39 PM »
How do you like this rendition?

Don't evade the points made. Your picture shows two elliptical orbits, they are different to each other. How in any way does that support your untenable claim?

BTW - Your userid is no longer suspended at CQ, I suggest you answer the questions there if you start up. I am 100% certain your antics here will be known about over there and will not be tolerated.
I remind you that they not only suspended me, they closed the thread to prevent anyone else from speculating aloong the lines of inquiry I had introduced.  Cosmoquest is not interested in any version but their own.  It is a waste of my time.

Do you ever get anything right? The thread says PM a moderator to get it opened again. Of course you will steer clear of CQ, you can't jerk around over there!
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 04:22:17 PM by Mag40 »

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2596 on: April 21, 2018, 04:30:22 PM »
Looking at the Orion EFT data it can be seen that the Orion's total mission dose for the round trip transit was approximately 15 mgy,  I found this very interesting.  It is much lower than I expected.  It is proof that the VAB can be transited without killing the astronauts.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2597 on: April 21, 2018, 04:31:40 PM »
How do you like this rendition?

Don't evade the points made. Your picture shows two elliptical orbits, they are different to each other. How in any way does that support your untenable claim?

BTW - Your userid is no longer suspended at CQ, I suggest you answer the questions there if you start up. I am 100% certain your antics here will be known about over there and will not be tolerated.
I remind you that they not only suspended me, they closed the thread to prevent anyone else from speculating aloong the lines of inquiry I had introduced.  Cosmoquest is not interested in any version but their own.  It is a waste of my time.

Do you ever get anything right? The thread says PM a moderator to get it opened again. Of course you will steer clear of CQ, you can't jerk around over there!
Why would they not let the dialogue continue during my absence?  They never closed the thread here after they suspended me.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2598 on: April 21, 2018, 04:34:59 PM »
CosmoQuest is heavily moderated. They do not tolerate side conversations, off-topic speculation, incomplete answers, or delaying tactics.

I stopped hanging out there myself (I miss the BAUT).

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2599 on: April 21, 2018, 04:40:26 PM »
How do you like this rendition?

Don't evade the points made. Your picture shows two elliptical orbits, they are different to each other. How in any way does that support your untenable claim?

BTW - Your userid is no longer suspended at CQ, I suggest you answer the questions there if you start up. I am 100% certain your antics here will be known about over there and will not be tolerated.
I remind you that they not only suspended me, they closed the thread to prevent anyone else from speculating along the lines of inquiry I had introduced.  Cosmoquest is not interested in any version but their own.  It is a waste of my time.
No, again you lie. I cited the exact post in this very thread. Right now, I am cranking up my photoshop, illustrator, Indesign, et al to demonstrate that you have no clue about imagery. In fairness to LO, who bears the cost of hosting this site. I will place said images on a hosting site independantly. While you wait, you can simply foxtrot right oscar. It is my mission du jour to demonstrate that you have not a clue. Allow me the time to do so, because you know I will. Regardless of your claims.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2600 on: April 21, 2018, 04:40:32 PM »
Quote
An unspeakable horror seized me. There was a darkness; then a dizzy, sickening sensation of sight that was not like seeing; I saw a Line that was no Line; Space that was not Space: I was myself, and not myself. When I could find voice, I shrieked loud in agony, "Either this is madness or it is Hell." "It is neither," calmly replied the voice of the Sphere, "it is Knowledge; it is Three Dimensions: open your eye once again and try to look steadily."

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2601 on: April 21, 2018, 04:42:17 PM »
How do you like this rendition?

Don't evade the points made. Your picture shows two elliptical orbits, they are different to each other. How in any way does that support your untenable claim?

BTW - Your userid is no longer suspended at CQ, I suggest you answer the questions there if you start up. I am 100% certain your antics here will be known about over there and will not be tolerated.
I remind you that they not only suspended me, they closed the thread to prevent anyone else from speculating aloong the lines of inquiry I had introduced.  Cosmoquest is not interested in any version but their own.  It is a waste of my time.

Do you ever get anything right? The thread says PM a moderator to get it opened again. Of course you will steer clear of CQ, you can't jerk around over there!
Why would they not let the dialogue continue during my absence?  They never closed the thread here after they suspended me.
Another lie, you are not currently suspended on CQ, nor are you banned. You can't help yourself.

Offline bknight

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2602 on: April 21, 2018, 04:46:35 PM »
It can clearly be seen that both elliptical orbits pass through the inner ring.  A side view reals that each plane of the ellipticals are identical.  As a consequence the passage through the High radiation inner ring should have similar profiles.  This being the case then the Orion EFT's data set can be extrapolated out to the apollo.

Among other aspects you fail to grasp, once the TLI burn began Apollo was not in the same inclination as it had been in during LEO, so NO the ellipticals will not be the same, as Apollo was changing to more northerly path avoiding the worst of the VARB.  Oh I forgot you don't understand orbital mechanics.  Orion continued on the same inclination but at a higher apogee, so the data can not be extrapolated TO Apollo.  Mary Bennett of Aulis makes the same mistake, perhaps you borrowed the incorrect conclusion from her?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 04:49:41 PM by bknight »
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Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2603 on: April 21, 2018, 04:51:03 PM »
Here is the thing.  If it is safe to assume the radiation profiles of Apollo 11 and the Orion are similar for the first 3600 miles then it is interesting to note that the 15 mgy spread over a 8.33 day mission would result in a daily exposure rate of 1.8 mgy/day.  Which is strange because the Apollo has a fraction of the Orion's shielding and it only received .22 mgy/day.  Can someone help me through this maze of confusion?

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2604 on: April 21, 2018, 04:51:15 PM »


As a consequence the passage through the High radiation inner ring should have similar profiles.  This being the case then the Orion EFT's data set can be extrapolated out to the apollo.

So you've moved your position from same profiles to similar profiles. I thought your straight line rendition implied identical paths.

You still don't get it. The eccentricity of the Apollo orbit enabled the spacecraft to avoid the inner VAB's high energy protons. The video link shows a projection of flux as contours on the orbital plane temporally and spatially. You don't understand that a plane through a torus at an angle to the vertical axis of the torus will produce contours that are related to the topology mapped by the torus, but we are working with contours of flux defined by a coordinate transformation between space like coordinates and magnetic field coordinates. Bob used this transformation in his calculation. We provided you with a link to the calculations. You hand waved it away. Please critique the math presented that deals with the orbital parameters versus the geomagnetic parameters, and the integrated flux as a spacelike and timelike function. Check that working rather than persisting with 2 dimensional arguments.



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Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2605 on: April 21, 2018, 04:54:27 PM »
It can clearly be seen that both elliptical orbits pass through the inner ring.  A side view reals that each plane of the ellipticals are identical.  As a consequence the passage through the High radiation inner ring should have similar profiles.  This being the case then the Orion EFT's data set can be extrapolated out to the apollo.

Among other aspects you fail to grasp, once the TLI burn began Apollo was not in the same inclination as it had been in during LEO, so NO the ellipticals will not be the same, as Apollo was changing to more northerly path avoiding the worst of the VARB.  Oh I forgot you don't understand orbital mechanics.  Orion continued on the same inclination but at a higher apogee, so the data can not be extrapolated TO Apollo.  Mary Bennett of Aulis makes the same mistake, perhaps you borrowed the incorrect conclusion from her?
Feel free to use the Apollo 11 log or any other reference to show where and when these imagined course corrections occured.  I think you are fabricating things to support your version of events but I will wait patiently while you perform the necessary gymnastics.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2606 on: April 21, 2018, 04:55:45 PM »


As a consequence the passage through the High radiation inner ring should have similar profiles.  This being the case then the Orion EFT's data set can be extrapolated out to the apollo.

So you've moved your position from same profiles to similar profiles. I thought your straight line rendition implied identical paths.

You still don't get it. The eccentricity of the Apollo orbit enabled the spacecraft to avoid the inner VAB's high energy protons. The video link shows a projection of flux as contours on the orbital plane temporally and spatially. You don't understand that a plane through a torus at an angle to the vertical axis of the torus will produce contours that are related to the topology mapped by the torus, but we are working with contours of flux defined by a coordinate transformation between space like coordinates and magnetic field coordinates. Bob used this transformation in his calculation. We provided you with a link to the calculations. You hand waved it away. Please critique the math presented that deals with the orbital parameters versus the geomagnetic parameters, and the integrated flux as a spacelike and timelike function. Check that working rather than persisting with 2 dimensional arguments.



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Feel free to use the Apollo 11 log or any other reference to show where and when these imagined course corrections occured.  I think you are fabricating things to support your version of events but I will wait patiently while you perform the necessary gymnastics.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2607 on: April 21, 2018, 04:57:14 PM »
9:32 a.m. EDT- On schedule to within less than a second, Apollo 11 blasts off from Launch Pad 39A at Cape Kennedy, Florida to start what is looked upon as the greatest single step in human history-a trip to the Moon, a manned landing and return to Earth.

Watching is a world-wide television audience and an estimated million eyewitnesses. Standing three and one-half miles away on the sandflats or seated in grandstands are half the members of the United States Congress and more than 3,000 newsmen from 56 countries.

Strapped to their couches in the command module atop the 363-foot, 7.6-million-pound thrust space vehicle are three astronauts, each born in 1930, each weighing 165 pounds, all within an inch of the same height-five feet, 11 inches. They are Commander Neil A. Armstrong, civilian and ex-test pilot; Command Module Pilot Michael Collins, and Lunar Module Pilot Edwin E. (Buzz) Aldrin, Jr., the latter two, officers of the U. S. Air Force.

The launch comes after a 28-hour countdown. It takes place in highly suitable weather, with winds 10 knots from the southeast, temperature in the mid-80's, and clouds at 15,000 feet.

At 4:15 a.m., the astronauts had been awakened. After a breakfast of orange juice, steak, scrambled eggs, toast and coffee, they began suiting up at 5:35 a.m. At 6:27 a.m., they left in an air-conditioned van for the launch pad eight miles away. At 6:54 a.m., Armstrong entered the command module and took position on the left. He was followed five minutes later by Collins, on the right, and Aldrin, in the center.
 
Two minor problems that developed in the ground equipment, a leaky valve and a faulty signal light were corrected while the astronauts were en route to the pad.
 
The Apollo access arm retracted at 9:27 a.m. Eight and nine-tenths seconds before launch time, the first of the Saturn V's first stage engines ignited. From the viewing stands, the flame appeared as a bright yellow-orange star on the horizon. Soon the other four engines fired and the light of the first engine became a huge fireball that lit the scene like a rising Sun. No sound was heard. For two seconds the vehicle built up thrust. The hold down clamps were released and the space vehicle began moving slowly upward from the pad, as near 9:32 a.m. as human effort could make it.
 
As it reached the top of the service tower, the hard-edged clattering thunder of the firing engines [3] rolled over the scrubby Florida landscape and engulfed the viewers like a tidal wave. They witnessed the beginning of the fifth manned Apollo flight, the third to the vicinity of the Moon and the first lunar landing mission.
 
From Launch Control the last words were: "Good luck and Godspeed." Commander Armstrong replied, "Thank you very much. We know this will be a good flight."
9:35 a.m.- The spacecraft is 37 nautical miles high, downrange 61 nautical miles and traveling at 9,300 feet per second or about 6,340 miles per hour. Armstrong confirms the engine skirt and launch escape tower separations.

9:44 a.m.- With the three Saturn stages fired one after another and the first two jettisoned, Apollo 11 enters a 103 nautical mile-high Earth orbit, during which the vehicle is carefully checked by the astronauts and by the ground control crew.

12:22 p.m.- Another firing of the third-stage engine, still attached to the command service module, boosts Apollo 11 out of orbit midway in its second trip around the Earth and onto its lunar trajectory at an initial speed of 24,200 miles an hour.

12:49 p.m.- While the spacecraft moves farther and farther from Earth, the lunar landing craft, code-named Eagle is unpacked from its compartment atop the launch rockets. The astronauts first fire some explosive bolts. These cause the main spaceship, given the name Columbia, to separate from the adapter and blow apart the four panels that make up its sides, exposing the lunar module (LM) tucked inside. They stop the spacecraft about 100 feet away -34 feet farther than they were supposed to-turn the ship around, facing the landing craft, and dock head-to-head with it. The docking complete, the LM's connections with the adapter are blown loose and the mated command/service and lunar modules separate from the rocket and continue alone toward the Moon.

2:38 p.m.- By dumping its leftover fuel the third rocket stage is fired into a long solar orbit to remove it from Apollo 11's path.

2:43 p.m.- With the flight on schedule and proceeding satisfactorily, the first scheduled midcourse correction is considered unnecessary.

2:54 p.m.- The spacecraft is reported 22,000 nautical miles from Earth and traveling at 12,914 feet per second. Crew members keep busy with housekeeping duties.

8:52 p.m.- Mission Control at Houston, Texas, says good night to the crew as they prepare to go to sleep two hours early.

10:59 p.m.- Because of the pull of Earth's gravity, the spacecraft has slowed to 7,279 feet per second at a distance of 63,880 nautical miles from Earth.

Offline timfinch

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2608 on: April 21, 2018, 04:59:51 PM »
I thought we all agreed after rigorous debate that Orion mirrored the apollo's path into the VAB.  Did something happen while I was hospitalized?

Offline bknight

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Re: Radiation
« Reply #2609 on: April 21, 2018, 05:04:37 PM »
Here is the thing.  If it is safe to assume the radiation profiles of Apollo 11 and the Orion are similar for the first 3600 miles then it is interesting to note that the 15 mgy spread over a 8.33 day mission would result in a daily exposure rate of 1.8 mgy/day.  Which is strange because the Apollo has a fraction of the Orion's shielding and it only received .22 mgy/day.  Can someone help me through this maze of confusion?

No they aren't,  the inclination of Apollo at 3600 miles was over 40 degrees and climbing, toward the less intense portions of the VARB, while Orion was plowing through the middle.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan