Radiation

[Abaddon]

just a quick comment here for my friend Abbadon.

I am not your friend and you have yet to spell my name correctly.

I actually went on CQ a few days ago to see Tim's thread there but didn't stay long.

Nope. Your last visit to CQ was November 2017.

secondly and I really mean this. I have all throughout my membership here followed the rules. I have never insulted anybody or tried to run any threads. I have asked a question and received many answers.

Which is exactly what tandem socks do.

Tim on several occasions broke the rules here and was reminded by a very many people that rules existed and that he should both follow them and follow the word of Lunar Orbit which is something I am very prepared to do.

Sure. But surely you can acknowledge that it looks pretty bleak right now. Yes/No?

may I cast your mind back Abbadon to a post by Lunar Orbit themselves In which he quite clearly instructed the participants to 'KNOCK OFF THE WITCH HUNT'.

Sure. How many times is it now that you have intentionally spelt my handle wrong? Two more times in this post. It cannot be anything other than intentional at this stage. The name is in the bible.

are you refusing to comply with that direct order or do you think you are above every one here who has literally not carried on the ridiculous notion you are doing.

You really do not want to know what I really think. Just look at your own post. You conceded the incorrect spelling on one hand and then did it again in a single post. Twice. Do you not think that raises some honking red flags? And you still have not returned to CQ, I took a screen shot of it and Waybacked it, so you cannot wriggle out.

You are simply going to have to realise that respect is not a right, it is earned.
So far, you have failed to do so.

Sure, you don't like that much. But that is the reality of the internet. As I am at pains to tell my kids, anyone on the internet can represent themselves to be anything. The null is to assume they are not what they purport to be. Now, as it happens, a member may be heading my direction in the not too distant. If I can swing it, we will meet up in the flesh, as it were. It won't be my first time and certainly won't be my last. He/she may even meet my kids, or I his/hers depending upon logistics.

Despite that it has not yet happened, I would entrust my kids to the care of said member.
Want to know why?

first of all the name spelling was intentional as I am getting sick and tired of you.

Yes, I know.

second I did indeed go to CQ just didn't log in. don't jump to conclusions without knowing all the facts.

And had no comment to make since November 2017. Well that is credible. Not.

third we are not tandem socks.

The evidence available suggests you are. I have posted my credentials as an engineer. I have met with various in real life. And you have what exactly? Surely you can see how this has all the hallmarks of a game?

I have done what is asked.

I don't believe you.

I have no control over what over people who live on the other side of the world do.

Correct. The other 96% of humanity watches the US sink into oblivion of ignorance with despair.

fourth it only looks bleak to you because it is only you who insists on following this idea.

A rather odd claim given that you slavishly follow tim.

fifth the name spelling is nothing to do with a direct instruction from the sole manager of this site. do what he says.

You have already claimed that you spell it wrong purposefully.

finally it isn't my intention to gain anything from anybody other than answers to my questions which I am very grateful for.

Except you have had answers to all of your questions with not so much as any response at all.

i'm sure I will ask more in the future.

Feel free. I very much doubt you will respond.

it doesn't bother me if I don't gain any trust. as I have said it is only you who is following this line of thought.

And you would be wrong in that supposition.  Trust is a critical component.  As matters stand, you have none.

Sure, I get that as an upstanding, moral citizen you might take offence at the notion that you not. But how the hell could anyone on the intertubes know that? Should we consider anything posted by anyone as true? Simply by dint of being on the webernets?

let me just say this again but this will be my very last post to you abaddon as now you are talking nonsense.

I have explained why I haven't been online at CQ. I don't need to say it again.

the evidence doesn't say we are. only in your mind. as evidence I ask you read some of the comments about this by other members who have refused to follow your line of thinking.

when I say I have done what is asked I mean I have followed all rules and provided what has been asked. your 'I don't believe you comment is nonsense.

I have never followed Tim. I asked a question here posed by tim, introduced him as a member and followed the thread with great interest.

I think you will find I have posted quite a few times in this thread. I have had no reason to post more as the people who have answered Tim have far more knowledge than me.

when I say it doesn't bother me I mean its only you doing this. if people here don't show me respect i'm not perturbed. my scientific knowledge pales in comparison  so I deserve no respect for that. I haven't asked for any either. I have simply asked a question.

this is the last time I will respond to you Abaddon as in my opinion you have insulted me. whatever you post now or in the future, on this thread or any other (including any other questions I may or not ask) I wont respond to you.

Lunar Orbit I believe I have followed the rules here, in my opinion Abaddon hasn't. I wont respond to any more posts of his while he insults me like this.

Sigh. Do you not realise that buckets of people represent themselves in weird terms? That's how internet stalking works. You are impossibly naive.

I could claim to be PDJT and you would take it at face value. Because it was on the intertubes.

Understand that how you are perceived is a direct function of how you self present. If one self presents as a moron who believes that clowns are the progeny of virgin unicorns, one might expect a level of mockery. Seems an extreme, right? But that is your space.


And as for you ignoring me? Colour me a river.  All that does is identify that you have no answer to the difficult questions, so you prefer to pretend they never happened. Up to you. Want to be seen as an internet wingnut or not?

[nomuse]

He started a new thread which was swiftly closed.

And so it was.

[Luke Pemberton]

He started a new thread which was swiftly closed.

And so it was.

Hahaha, you spotted it; you clever rascal you! 

[nomuse]

Much as I understand and sympathize with the CosmoQuest moderation philosophy, it is a failure in this thread. TimFinch is gaming the system. Whether it is for pure trolling, or to avoid having to confront his own inability, I can not say.

The moderators are assuming good faith and are allowing him to string everyone else along. He is NOT going to answer direct questions, no matter how much they ask. He is NOT going to stick to the subject, no matter how much they intend that to happen. He's just going to do the same thing he did here, with the exception being no-one gets to acknowledge it.

[Luke Pemberton]

Well, if you want to see the wheels fall off, he's now shown he knows nothing of orbital mechanics or has Jason has identified, his trolling has fallen apart as he has gone from talking of ellipses to straight trajectories for Apollo.

[molesworth]

I was joking with my Wallace and Gromit reference, but I'm beginning to wonder if Tim actually thinks orbital mechanics actually do work that way... :-)

[Luke Pemberton]

I was joking with my Wallace and Gromit reference, but I'm beginning to wonder if Tim actually thinks orbital mechanics actually do work that way... :-)

Yes, I picked up on your joke. I asked him earlier in the CQ thread if he believed the rocket travelled in a straight line and he ignored me. It dawned on me following his Orion and Apollo equivalence and his insistence of using 2D to represent the problem. He is obsessed by the latter.

He then kept referring to the rocket slowing down due to gravity. This made me realise that he actually thinks it followed a straight line, along with the Orion diagram he presented here. When he then spoke of Bob representing the orbit as a curve, it then became a little more obvious.

I do believe he's taking trolling to a new level though, and it's all a sham on his part to play dumb to keep the debate open for his jollies. So where I say 'he thinks', I mean he's pretending to think. That's my speculation of course.

[raven]

It can be quite difficult to tell the difference between a fool and someone assuming such a role. The two are not mutually exclusive, surprisingly enough.

[smartcooky]

It can be quite difficult to tell the difference between a fool and someone assuming such a role. The two are not mutually exclusive, surprisingly enough.

We are having a somewhat similar problem with a poster in a JFK Conspiracy thread on ISF.  He displays all the classic tells of Dunning-Kruger Effect... he is convinced he knows everything about everything, and more than anyone else does on any given subject. Further, he simply cannot be convinced that he is wrong, and holds on to long debunked ideas. Exhibitors of Dunning Kruger cannot bear the idea that someone else might have more knowledge on any subject than they do, so when they realise they have encountered a bona-fide expert on a subject of discussion, they will attack that expert's knowledge as irrelevant and meaningless, and attempt to belittle them by making them out to be obsessed in that subject field. Anyone who dares to point out he is wrong is dealt with in a dismissive and often rude and demeaning manner.

TimFinch exhibits exactly the same characteristics....

- When he was out of his depth with graphs and mathematics, he attacked those who knew he was wrong and knew what they were talking about.

- When he showed an inability to understand a 3D model of orbital mechanics, he professed a preference for using 2D, and attacked the idea of 3D as too complex (claiming that if things could not be explained simply, then you didn't understand the subject.... (TimFinch thought he could explain things with 2D, therefore, in his mind, he understood better than those who insisted on the 3D view)

IME, this is classic DK behaviour, and if it looks familiar, it is... The Blunder and Adrian van Weereld (AWE130) are other examples of people exhibiting DK Effect   

[LunarOrbit]

Ben's last visit to CQ? 2017-Nov-21 01:08

Odd that.

I told you to knock it off with the witch hunt. What part wasn't clear?

Seriously. You're acting paranoid and it makes the rest of us look bad. I get that sometimes conspiracy theorists hide their intentions when they join, but that doesn't mean every new member is lying.

The fact that Ben and Tim had some kind of relationship prior to joining the forum is NOT suspicious because they could be acquaintances and still be on opposite sides of the debate. The fact that Ben has not logged into CosmoQuest since November is NOT suspicious because he can read the forum without logging in (I just logged into CQ for the first time in several years yesterday). The fact that he spelled your name wrong is NOT suspicious because mistakes happen... even to people who believe the Apollo moon landings happened.

You are doing the same thing as Timfinch. You're letting your certainty that you are right blind you to the possibility that you are wrong. It is irrational.

This is your last warning on the matter. You can have suspicions but if you start throwing around accusations you better be prepared to provide solid evidence. It's no different than when a conspiracy theorist accuses one of us of being a government stooge.

[bknight]

I was joking with my Wallace and Gromit reference, but I'm beginning to wonder if Tim actually thinks orbital mechanics actually do work that way... :-)

Yes, I picked up on your joke. I asked him earlier in the CQ thread if he believed the rocket travelled in a straight line and he ignored me. It dawned on me following his Orion and Apollo equivalence and his insistence of using 2D to represent the problem. He is obsessed by the latter.

He then kept referring to the rocket slowing down due to gravity. This made me realise that he actually thinks it followed a straight line, along with the Orion diagram he presented here. When he then spoke of Bob representing the orbit as a curve, it then became a little more obvious.

I do believe he's taking trolling to a new level though, and it's all a sham on his part to play dumb to keep the debate open for his jollies. So where I say 'he thinks', I mean he's pretending to think. That's my speculation of course.

I snickered when he said that "if it isn't written it wasn't done"  or words to that effect.  If he would go back to a 3-D model and then hold up a plane that intersects the Moon in ~3 days he should be able to visualize that orbit ellipse.  He says he is done, but we've heard that before, I suspect he will be back.

[Peter B]

The thing about all this radiation talk that gets me is that it will probably all be revised in the future.  If you read a lot of the Nasa publications and articles they always put a disclaimer?  Usually they say something like "Though accurate at the time of publication........  You have to take it as faith that the information is correct and peer reviewed.  Might as well just believe in Sasquatch.

Out of interest, do you think that scientists from Russia, China, Iran, North Korea (or any number of other countries unfriendly to the USA) "take it as faith that the information is correct" that NASA publishes?

It's a simple fact that, during the Cold War, a country as skilled at propaganda and misdirection as the USSR would have had a propaganda coup of the highest order if they'd been able to demonstrate the NASA had faked Apollo.

And given Russia's current behaviour towards the USA in particular and the West in general, it's hard to see Russia passing up an opportunity to make mischief at the USA's expense if scientific malfeasance by NASA could be shown, particularly if it had some sort of government backing, direction or support.

tl;dr NASA wouldn't fake data because it would be too easy to show they were wrong.

[VQ]

He flounced at CQ, again.

Anyways, I learned a bit more about terrestrial magnetic field weakening as a result of these threads, so I'm out ahead.

[raven]

Here's another point why NASA would not use false data.
As has been pointed out, despite incredulity, that radiation does damage electronics. If the radiation was significantly stronger than NASA and even other space agencies reported, satellites, including privately owned ones, like many communications satellites, would be failing t faster than expected. The companies, not to mention the insurance companies, the latter whose whole business model is based on accurately predicting risks and assigning a commiserate rate to insure them by, would  knows something was amiss, and these are multibillion dollar companies with thousands of employees. Think all of them are just going to roll over for some  government hoax that was doomed to fail from from the start, when they're losing money over it?

[gillianren]

Yeah, I asked him why they didn't just fake it to something believable.  The answer was something something magic trick, something something Guantanamo.