Author Topic: What becomes of old 'friends'..  (Read 660534 times)

Offline Abaddon

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1005 on: January 24, 2016, 05:13:33 AM »
Taffy suffered a stroke before he got into the HB nonsense.

I don't engage with him at all because it is immoral to me to beat up the impaired.

Offline ka9q

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1006 on: January 24, 2016, 05:45:44 AM »
That can't be the S-IVB. Nobody went inside the LM until the S-IVB was long gone.

To me it looks like the CSM, seen almost end-on from the SPS side, side-lit by the sun.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 05:47:16 AM by ka9q »

Offline ka9q

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1007 on: January 24, 2016, 06:11:43 AM »
It's this kind of sloppy editing to improve the look of the images that is what sends these idiots frothing at the mouth.
That's not sloppy editing, it's JPEG compression.

The giveaway is that the dimensions of the blocks are almost all multiples of 8 and line up on multiples of 8. For example, the block in the lower left corner extends from x=0 to x=375, or 376 pixels wide. 376 = 8*47. It extends from y=1656 to y=2358, or 703 pixels high. (GIMP puts the origin in the upper left corner.) 2359 = 8* 294.875, so the bottom row is missing because of the original image size.  But 1656 = 8 * 207, so this checks again. If the bottom row of pixels were there, it would be 704 pixels high, and 704 = 8 * 88.

What's magic about 8? JPEG works by dividing the image into 8x8 blocks with 64 pixels each, taking a 2-D cosine transform and encoding the results for each block to a DC value representing the average brightness and AC components selected to reproduce the image as accurately as possible given the quantization level (set by the JPEG compression/quality setting). JPEG especially likes to quantize AC components to zero when possible since that greatly aids the subsequent Huffman/run-length-encoding step to get good compression.

The DC value is always encoded with a lot of bits since there's only one value for the whole block. The dark blocks get encoded to a very low DC component (the average brightness for the entire 8x8 block) and the AC components all get quantized to zero, so the entire block takes on a single brightness equal to zero or very close to it. Not true for the non-black blocks as their AC components cannot be quantized to zero. So you see a lot of quantizing error (and probably encoded film grain) which shows up as noise in all the pixels, including any black ones on the edges.

I haven't done this for the other "blocks" in the image; that's an exercise for the reader. But lossy image compression schemes are only designed to look good with ordinary images. They were never meant to be undetectable when you muck with the image curves. 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:03:16 AM by ka9q »

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1008 on: January 24, 2016, 07:08:38 AM »
That can't be the S-IVB. Nobody went inside the LM until the S-IVB was long gone.

To me it looks like the CSM, seen almost end-on from the SPS side, side-lit by the sun.

The SIV-B is long gone - you can see it in the photograph ;) Here it is cropped:



and here's a crop of the last of the 3 images in the sequence:



The photographs of Earth either side of the sequence of 3 SIV-B pictures date it pretty precisely as July 16th, sometime after TLI but before the first camera test.

I take your point, btw, about JPG compression.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 07:14:25 AM by onebigmonkey »

Offline ka9q

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1009 on: January 24, 2016, 08:06:30 AM »
I stand corrected. I realize now that while that is indeed a LM RCS quad in the lower left corner, the picture was probably taken from one of the forward-looking CSM windows, which would have been looking past the docked LM. I'm used to seeing that quad in the lower left corner of pictures taken out the CDR's window in the LM.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1010 on: January 24, 2016, 08:18:21 AM »
I stand corrected. I realize now that while that is indeed a LM RCS quad in the lower left corner, the picture was probably taken from one of the forward-looking CSM windows, which would have been looking past the docked LM. I'm used to seeing that quad in the lower left corner of pictures taken out the CDR's window in the LM.

:)

Probably window number 5:

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005:13:26 Aldrin: Houston, Apollo 11. We've got the, uh, what appears to be the S-IVB in sight, at, oh, I'd estimate a couple of miles away. It's at our number 5 window and the dump appears to be coming out of two radially opposite directions from the S-IVB.

Offline ka9q

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1011 on: January 24, 2016, 08:20:26 AM »
This'll teach me to look at a photo in context with the others and to look at all the metadata...

Offline ka9q

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1012 on: January 24, 2016, 08:25:02 AM »
This does seem a somewhat odd place to be during an S-IVB propellant dump. On the later missions at least, these dumps (of LOX, at least) were done through the engine nozzle to produce some thrust to take the stage away from Apollo and past the trailing side of the moon into an earth escape. The delta-V was small but appreciable, and you wouldn't want the stage slamming back into the spacecraft.

Exactly this happened to a spacecraft I worked on in 1983 after it was launched by an ESA Ariane. Somebody forgot to reorient the third stage before the propellant dumps, and....bam!

This must have been somewhat after extraction but before an S-IVB reorientation or an Apollo evasive maneuver to get out of the way before the dumps started.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:28:42 AM by ka9q »

Offline bknight

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1013 on: January 24, 2016, 09:05:19 AM »
This discussion is one of the reasons that I love this forum.  You get some experts discussing what may seem to be an anomaly that the HB grab ahold of.

Now I have a few questions, but that may have been answered by ka9q,
1.  Is the square shape of the image that obm presented caused by the "averaging of the compression features of jpg?  With a bright circular object averaged with dark space around it?
2. I only have the normal Windows image programs and SnagIt photo editor.  obm, how did you adjust levels?  I'm not familiar with that adjustment?
3.  The ALSJ clearly describes the image as, AS11-36-5327 (OF300) (  19k or 251k )
SIVB stage.  Where else is the image description?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1014 on: January 24, 2016, 09:30:05 AM »

2. I only have the normal Windows image programs and SnagIt photo editor.  obm, how did you adjust levels?  I'm not familiar with that adjusment?

In Photoshop there is a tool that allows you to be more precise about brightness levels - rather than just turning it up or down. This page explains it better than I can:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/levels.htm

GIMP is a good free editor that has the same tool under it's colours menu. It's a very good way of freshening up an image that looks washed out.

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3.  The ALSJ clearly describes the image as, AS11-36-5327 (OF300) (  19k or 251k )
SIVB stage.  Where else is the image description?

They obviously aren't using the description given in the Photography Index linked to on their site, and it's possible that it as incorrectly described on there originally and then corrected.

Offline bknight

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1015 on: January 24, 2016, 09:33:25 AM »
Quote
They obviously aren't using the description given in the Photography Index linked to on their site, and it's possible that it as incorrectly described on there originally and then corrected.
Could you provide that link?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline bknight

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1016 on: January 24, 2016, 09:47:51 AM »
Taffy suffered a stroke before he got into the HB nonsense.

I don't engage with him at all because it is immoral to me to beat up the impaired.
You've ruined my fun, as I didn't know this.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline ka9q

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1017 on: January 24, 2016, 09:57:27 AM »
1.  Is the square shape of the image that obm presented caused by the "averaging of the compression features of jpg?  With a bright circular object averaged with dark space around it?
Do you mean the square or rectangular shape of the "windows" around each object in that image?

If so, no. The picture is broken up into 8x8 pixel blocks, and each block is encoded separately from all other blocks. A block is encoded as a (relatively) high precision DC value, which gives the average brightness of that block, plus a bunch of AC components that, when combined, say how much each pixel in the block differs from the average. These values are computed with a relative of the Fourier transform called the (2D) cosine transform. In essence, it breaks the image down to a weighted sum of a whole bunch of checkerboard patterns, both square and rectangular. The weights are the AC components.

There's as much data in these components as in the original image, so we still haven't compressed it. But we can quantize the AC components, i.e., reduce their accuracy, and if we haven't done that too aggressively then when they're turned back into pixels they won't look much different from the originals.

Because pictures often contain flat areas without a lot of fine detail, it is often possible to squash most or all of the AC components in a 8x8 block to zeroes. These are especially easy to encode using "run length encoding", i.e., you simply say how many consecutive zeroes there are without actually sending them.

Because Apollo pictures often include lots of flat black sky, they're ideally suited to JPEG compression (look at how small many of the .jpg files can be).

A similar effect occurs in voice communication systems, both analog and digital, where very weak sounds that you can't hear anyway are removed to avoid wasting system capacity on them. (Analog systems have VOX and squelch; digital vocoders quantize much like video, sometimes with variable data rates.) So very dark areas of pictures often get squashed into pure black, removing even the film grain, and voice pauses with only background noise get squashed into pure silence.

This obviously doesn't happen in the non-black parts of the picture, so the combination of quantization errors and film grain turn into random-appearing noise when the picture is reconstructed. This includes originally black pixels on the edge of the block that are adjacent to completely black blocks. That's what makes the edges of those blocks so conspicuous. But that only happens when you fiddle with the brightness to make them visible. And that's unfair to the compression algorithm, because it's not designed for that. If you don't want any compression artifacts at all, don't compress.


Offline bknight

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1018 on: January 24, 2016, 10:14:28 AM »
Do you mean the square or rectangular shape of the "windows" around each object in that image?

Yes that was what the reference was.

Quote
If so, no. The picture is broken up into 8x8 pixel blocks, and each block is encoded separately from all other blocks. A block is encoded as a (relatively) high precision DC value, which gives the average brightness of that block, plus a bunch of AC components that, when combined, say how much each pixel in the block differs from the average. These values are computed with a relative of the Fourier transform called the (2D) cosine transform. In essence, it breaks the image down to a weighted sum of a whole bunch of checkerboard patterns, both square and rectangular. The weights are the AC components.

What is AC, DC?

Quote
There's as much data in these components as in the original image, so we still haven't compressed it. But we can quantize the AC components, i.e., reduce their accuracy, and if we haven't done that too aggressively then when they're turned back into pixels they won't look much different from the originals.

Because pictures often contain flat areas without a lot of fine detail, it is often possible to squash most or all of the AC components in a 8x8 block to zeroes. These are especially easy to encode using "run length encoding", i.e., you simply say how many consecutive zeroes there are without actually sending them.


That is why I asked if Jay had found his original images, TIFF I think he said

Quote
Because Apollo pictures often include lots of flat black sky, they're ideally suited to JPEG compression (look at how small many of the .jpg files can be).

A similar effect occurs in voice communication systems, both analog and digital, where very weak sounds that you can't hear anyway are removed to avoid wasting system capacity on them. (Analog systems have VOX and squelch; digital vocoders quantize much like video, sometimes with variable data rates.) So very dark areas of pictures often get squashed into pure black, removing even the film grain, and voice pauses with only background noise get squashed into pure silence.

This obviously doesn't happen in the non-black parts of the picture, so the combination of quantization errors and film grain turn into random-appearing noise when the picture is reconstructed. This includes originally black pixels on the edge of the block that are adjacent to completely black blocks. That's what makes the edges of those blocks so conspicuous. But that only happens when you fiddle with the brightness to make them visible. And that's unfair to the compression algorithm, because it's not designed for that. If you don't want any compression artifacts at all, don't compress.
Now you know HB's will use any procedure if it lends a credence to their argument. :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline bknight

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Re: What becomes of old 'friends'..
« Reply #1019 on: January 24, 2016, 10:20:06 AM »
Is this "type" of image manipulation what Jack White did to present some of his beliefs?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan