Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch

[JayUtah]

By maintaining a little forward velocity Gene knew he wouldn't back into something he'd already flown over. You can har Jack reminding gene to nudge the LM forward as the approach the ground. The audio from the other missions contain many such reminders.

Cernan addresses this in the debriefing.  He said that when flying the LM visually in P66 a pilot naturally tended to let it drift backwards.  The pilot had to consciously coerce forward motion.

[jr Knowing]

Hi Everyone,

Yes that is the object I am talking about. It is a fender. There are Hi-Res pics that show it clearly with both its color and proper shape. (it isn't completely curved as some people may think.) The thing I would note here is according to transcripts they lost the fender during EVA 1 and didn't recover it. It should also be pointed out there is another object between the two foot paths near the fender. (Apollo surface journal says they have no idea what it is) One should also note the photos that show the striped down LR going for an initial test drive (with the fender in background) has all four fenders intact at the end photo.

Keep all this in mind with the two pictures I have attached to this post. It is one of the landing site and another of EVA 1. They are slightly oriented differently (maybe 30 degrees) and one is taken from a higher vantage point. I have numbered certain features. (I would suggest using Hi-Res)

1. Small crater in front of subject crater. Notice the straight edge of the bottom of the crater created by the tire track. Also take note of patterns/rocks/shadows within this small crater.

2. Subject crater with smaller attached satellite crater to the left.

3. rock and shadow behind/left of satellite crater.

4. Distinctive shaped rock/shadow to the right of what appears an indentation. Second picture same distinctive rock but now a rock has been added above the indentation. Also note the foot trail behind.

5. In one pic it is an indentation, in the other a large rock has been added.

6.Large rock. Same in both.

7. In one picture it is a set a tire tracks. (including a tire track in the foreground up against the subject crater). In the second photo, it is foot tracks that seem to follow a very similar path. Note the zig zag around rock six. Also if you are wondering about the two visible craters beside the number 7 in the one photo and not the other. They are there. If you download the hi-res pic they show up clearly even from the lower vantage point of photo. (you can see them somewhat even on this pic, directly below the number 6)

8. In one photo it shows an indentation. In The other photo, two rocks have been added. Take note of the foot prints around these two rocks.

Not marked. but should be noted are the Hills in the background.

I have many more photos to show the similarities. (These photos are AS17-134-20437 and AS17-147-22514.) But, to me, it appears EVA 1 was done first and then the landing site. The site was re-dressed somewhat and the tire tracks were just literally walked over. What are the odds of the tire tracks and foot paths having such similar characteristics? (Btw,There are some good photos of the foot print trails out by rock 6. Take a look at the amount of shoe prints.)

What are people's thoughts?  Please be gentle.

[JayUtah]

The site was re-dressed somewhat...

So you are claiming it was faked?

Please be gentle.

Please be honest.

[onebigmonkey]

Hi Everyone,

Yes that is the object I am talking about. It is a fender. There are Hi-Res pics that show it clearly with both its color and proper shape. (it isn't completely curved as some people may think.) The thing I would note here is according to transcripts they lost the fender during EVA 1 and didn't recover it. It should also be pointed out there is another object between the two foot paths near the fender. (Apollo surface journal says they have no idea what it is) One should also note the photos that show the striped down LR going for an initial test drive (with the fender in background) has all four fenders intact at the end photo.

It is not a fender. you insisting it is a fender does not make it a fender.

Keep all this in mind with the two pictures I have attached to this post. It is one of the landing site and another of EVA 1. They are slightly oriented differently (maybe 30 degrees) and one is taken from a higher vantage point. I have numbered certain features. (I would suggest using Hi-Res)

1. Small crater in front of subject crater. Notice the straight edge of the bottom of the crater created by the tire track. Also take note of patterns/rocks/shadows within this small crater.

2. Subject crater with smaller attached satellite crater to the left.

3. rock and shadow behind/left of satellite crater.

4. Distinctive shaped rock/shadow to the right of what appears an indentation. Second picture same distinctive rock but now a rock has been added above the indentation. Also note the foot trail behind.

5. In one pic it is an indentation, in the other a large rock has been added.

6.Large rock. Same in both.

7. In one picture it is a set a tire tracks. (including a tire track in the foreground up against the subject crater). In the second photo, it is foot tracks that seem to follow a very similar path. Note the zig zag around rock six. Also if you are wondering about the two visible craters beside the number 7 in the one photo and not the other. They are there. If you download the hi-res pic they show up clearly even from the lower vantage point of photo. (you can see them somewhat even on this pic, directly below the number 6)

8. In one photo it shows an indentation. In The other photo, two rocks have been added. Take note of the foot prints around these two rocks.

Not marked. but should be noted are the Hills in the background.

I have many more photos to show the similarities. (These photos are AS17-134-20437 and AS17-147-22514.) But, to me, it appears EVA 1 was done first and then the landing site. The site was re-dressed somewhat and the tire tracks were just literally walked over. What are the odds of the tire tracks and foot paths having such similar characteristics? (Btw,There are some good photos of the foot print trails out by rock 6. Take a look at the amount of shoe prints.)

What are people's thoughts?  Please be gentle.

Nope. Completely wrong. You are looking at photographs from two completely different locations. AS17-134-20437 was taken at the SEP site. It is part of this pan:

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/a17pan1230624HR.jpg

[jr Knowing]

Hi OneBigMonkey,

Yes, I have all the pans. I realize they are suppose to be from two different sites. But it doesn't change the fact, if you look carefully at the photos I attached something doesn't appear right. Please download the hi-res pics and look for your self. The three craters in the foreground (the main crater, the attached satellite crater and the crater in front of the main crater), alone should give you pause and at least make you want to investigate further.

[JayUtah]

I realize they are suppose to be from two different sites. But it doesn't change the fact, if you look carefully at the photos I attached something doesn't appear right.

Not a fact.

Please download the hi-res pics and look for your self.  ...[Y]ou want to investigate further.

Present an argument that assumes everyone already has, and that they disagree with your interpretation.  Rampant question-begging doesn't convince anyone.  We've already shown that your assumptions are rarely correct.  Why should this be a different case?

[jr Knowing]

Hi Jay,

I understand you are scepticism. I have attached a few of the "fender" pics. I wish I could post Hi-Res because it will show it pretty clearly. Even on one of the Space journals they suggest it is a fender.

Please take a look at those comparison pics I posted. Like I said, even if you look at the craters in the foreground, it should give you pause and make you want to dig a bit deeper. It did me.

[bknight]

Hi Everyone,

Yes that is the object I am talking about. It is a fender. There are Hi-Res pics that show it clearly with both its color and proper shape. (it isn't completely curved as some people may think.) The thing I would note here is according to transcripts they lost the fender during EVA 1 and didn't recover it. It should also be pointed out there is another object between the two foot paths near the fender. (Apollo surface journal says they have no idea what it is) One should also note the photos that show the striped down LR going for an initial test drive (with the fender in background) has all four fenders intact at the end photo.

Keep all this in mind with the two pictures I have attached to this post. It is one of the landing site and another of EVA 1. They are slightly oriented differently (maybe 30 degrees) and one is taken from a higher vantage point. I have numbered certain features. (I would suggest using Hi-Res)

1. Small crater in front of subject crater. Notice the straight edge of the bottom of the crater created by the tire track. Also take note of patterns/rocks/shadows within this small crater.

2. Subject crater with smaller attached satellite crater to the left.

3. rock and shadow behind/left of satellite crater.

4. Distinctive shaped rock/shadow to the right of what appears an indentation. Second picture same distinctive rock but now a rock has been added above the indentation. Also note the foot trail behind.

5. In one pic it is an indentation, in the other a large rock has been added.

6.Large rock. Same in both.

7. In one picture it is a set a tire tracks. (including a tire track in the foreground up against the subject crater). In the second photo, it is foot tracks that seem to follow a very similar path. Note the zig zag around rock six. Also if you are wondering about the two visible craters beside the number 7 in the one photo and not the other. They are there. If you download the hi-res pic they show up clearly even from the lower vantage point of photo. (you can see them somewhat even on this pic, directly below the number 6)

8. In one photo it shows an indentation. In The other photo, two rocks have been added. Take note of the foot prints around these two rocks.

Not marked. but should be noted are the Hills in the background.

I have many more photos to show the similarities. (These photos are AS17-134-20437 and AS17-147-22514.) But, to me, it appears EVA 1 was done first and then the landing site. The site was re-dressed somewhat and the tire tracks were just literally walked over. What are the odds of the tire tracks and foot paths having such similar characteristics? (Btw,There are some good photos of the foot print trails out by rock 6. Take a look at the amount of shoe prints.)

What are people's thoughts?  Please be gentle.

I have to disagree with you That 4 o'clock pan during EVA-1 shows any fender.  I have reviewed ll the pan images.   117:45:47-117:47:43  AS17-147-22497--AS17-147-22526  and then takes an images or the LRV with Gene driving and all four fenders are in tact.(AS17-147-22527).
Now I'm not saying you didn't see a fender but not in this sequence.  Another image number?

ETA: With your more complete description, I did find the number AS17-147-22525(part of 4 o'clock pan).  Yes there is a fender laying on the ground.  So what point were/are you trying to make with a missing fender?  It is really easy to post Hi-Res images.  from previous image AS17-147-22525:

https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-147-22525HR.jpg

[JayUtah]

I understand you are scepticism.

No, you don't understand my skepticism at all.

...make you want to dig a bit deeper.

If you understood my skepticism, you would have provided the argument I asked for.  Instead you just keep begging some vague question.  State clearly what you believe to have happened, and show clearly how the evidence points to that conclusion.  Quit playing games.

It did me.

Irrelevant.  You've given your critics here plenty of reasons to distrust your motives, skill, and methods.  Hence do not suggest we should rely on any of that.

[onebigmonkey]

Hi OneBigMonkey,

Yes, I have all the pans. I realize they are suppose to be from two different sites. But it doesn't change the fact, if you look carefully at the photos I attached something doesn't appear right. Please download the hi-res pics and look for your self. The three craters in the foreground (the main crater, the attached satellite crater and the crater in front of the main crater), alone should give you pause and at least make you want to investigate further.

You need to rid of yourself of this idea you have that you are the only one who has looked at these images properly. You are not the only person who has ever studied Apollo images carefully, and you are also not the first person to make a fool of themselves by mistaking something in them for something else. This is what you have repeatedly done here.

The images are from completely different locations. The location of the first photograph you posted can be seen in the panorama that contains the second - here it is with the same rock identified amongst the tracks leading to Poppie crater:



If you think they are from the same location then why not try lining up the mountains in the background and see what happens:



I have aligned that image on one slope of the hills in the background. If you actually look closely, instead of claiming that you have, you will see that they do not match up at all. The reason for that is because they are photographed from a different perspective.

[Jason Thompson]

Yes, I have all the pans. I realize they are suppose to be from two different sites. But it doesn't change the fact, if you look carefully at the photos I attached something doesn't appear right.

So are you contending that these are supposed to be two different sites but are actually the same set slightly redressed? What exactly draws you to this conclusion?

Simple questions. Give simple answers.

[jr Knowing]

Hi Jason,

In reply #91 I posted two pics in which I have highlighted/numbered similar features. Just look at the three craters in the foreground of each pic and go from there.

[JayUtah]

In reply #91 I posted two pics in which I have highlighted/numbered similar features.

Describe how you determined they were identical rather than merely similar.

Just look at the three craters in the foreground of each pic and go from there.

No, that's not how investigation works.  You've obviously gone somewhere specific and arrived at a specific conclusion.  Explain the details of your line of reasoning.

[onebigmonkey]

Hi Jason,

In reply #91 I posted two pics in which I have highlighted/numbered similar features. Just look at the three craters in the foreground of each pic and go from there.

Similar does not equal the same. They are different features in different locations.

[jr Knowing]

Hi OneBigMonkey,

I hesitate to say anything at the risk of being seen as crackpot, but if there is something to what I am saying then why would that far off picture of the LM "exist"in which you point out the rock? If, even if it is a million to one, the EVA and LM site are one in the same then could that not be some Matte painting? Look at how the LM looks. It looks very vivid and the colors look off. Again don't destroy me. I am just pointing out how evidence might not always be fully trust worthy.

I am not quite sure about what you are trying to show with the pair comparison.  They were shot from significantly different angles and height. Even then, despite what you are saying, they actually line up pretty good. I think you are being confused by the dark band of land just below the hills. If you follow the footprints/tracks out to where they disappear in background you will see it is darker band of ground/hill that changes. You see this transition from flat ground to hills/horizon in many pics particularly the later missions. That band changes everything else remains fairly static. I will leave it to another day to explain what I think is going on. I rather concentrate on the comparisons between the two sites for now. As some posters have pointed out, we need to stick to one topic at a time.