Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch

[JayUtah]

Speaking of He That Shall Not Be Named, Jay Any answer to my question?

Sorry, I didn't see it.  It's a trick question.  The data gives you only the peak measurement; to compute the dose you would need to integrate a finer-grained measurement over time and energy, using calculus to obtain the fluence over those variables.  Naturally you would have to include the attenuation factor of the spacecraft hull.  The right answer should have been, "There isn't enough information in this table to determine that."  This is why we measure radiation exposure for human astronauts instead of trying to compute it.  He failed the test by not knowing what data and mathematical techniques were needed to answer the question, and whether he had/knew them.

[bobdude11]

We probably know more about the actual scandals that are part of the history of Apollo than you do (as well as the stunning achievements) such as:

- The decision to locate Mission Control in Houston;

- The process which determined that Mission Control would use IBM computers; and

- The process by which North American won the contract for the construction of the Apollo CSM.

Now I'm curious. Care to spin those real NASA scandals off into their separate thread? I'd like to learn more.

As am I … I think I know the reason for locating in Houston, but I am most curious as to all of them. Even when you know or think you know, you will ALWAYS learn something new!!

[bobdude11]

From a certain simplistic point of view, it was an aluminum balloon.

What would that make the Falcon, other than a rust bucket?

She may not be much to look at, but she's fast.

On the sixth day of flouncemas I OCD'd to me,
Six galloping Gishes
Five Duane Damannns!
Four Jarrahs yapping
Three David Percy's
Two talking heads
And a strawman in a pear tree.

Speaking of which, is Duane still actve?

Passed away 2013

I believe I chatted with him in 2015 or 2016 on YT.  Still had the Moon chip on his shoulder and he still didn't like most of the guys on EF.  I guess those guys were too hard on him attempting to point out how wrong he was/is.  He told me everything about me that was on my profile, so could read still.

2013 is supported on many sites.  Obituary here https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sandiegouniontribune/obituary.aspx?n=duane-t-gish&pid=163795335

I always wondered where 'Gish Gallop' came from. Never realized it was named after someone.

[bknight]

Speaking of He That Shall Not Be Named, Jay Any answer to my question?

Sorry, I didn't see it.  It's a trick question.  The data gives you only the peak measurement; to compute the dose you would need to integrate a finer-grained measurement over time and energy, using calculus to obtain the fluence over those variables.  Naturally you would have to include the attenuation factor of the spacecraft hull.  The right answer should have been, "There isn't enough information in this table to determine that."  This is why we measure radiation exposure for human astronauts instead of trying to compute it.  He failed the test by not knowing what data and mathematical techniques were needed to answer the question, and whether he had/knew them.

As I looked at it that thought came to me, but wasn't sure.  Does NOAA gather and post a more complete set of data that can be evaluated, instead of just peak values?

[JayUtah]

Does NOAA gather and post a more complete set of data that can be evaluated, instead of just peak values?

Yes and no.  You can get a more-or-less continuous stream of x-ray flux and particle energy/flux data regardless of whether an event is in progress.  The data dating from the Apollo era was presented as event data, not a continuous data set.  However, the last time I checked, the free service still only gives you data at 1-minute intervals.

[Echnaton]

As am I … I think I know the reason for locating in Houston, but I am most curious as to all of them. Even when you know or think you know, you will ALWAYS learn something new!!

Here is the version I know:

LBJ was put in charge of the process because he knew how to wheel and deal in Congress as well as anyone.  He knew that to get approval, the program needed to be spread around.  California already had plenty of aerospace to benefit.  New York had its own aerospace industry and lousy weather.  Alabama had the Redstone Arsenal where rockets were being developed.  Florida was the only place for a launch complex. Texas made the obvious place politically for the Manned Space headquarters. AND it was LBJ's home state.

The location near Houston:

Exxon (actually the predecessor by name) had a large land development south of Houston and needed some industry to lure people southeast of Houston while the Gulf freeway was under construction. The development business was, I think, mostly an offshoot of the relative tax incentives of the time.  Exxon offered the land to LBJ for free.

Any politician with his salt, and LBJ was a salty guy, wouldn't look this gift horse in its mouth. A corporation or a person cannot give a gift like this to the government. So, a deal was worked out for Exxon to give the land to Rice University without encumbrance. Rice then donated the land to the government. It was not in the City of Houston at the time. Houston and Texas are very forward looking and welcomed the investment and jobs.

Clear Lake had plenty of benefits for NASA. A huge tract of flat grazing land. Cheap new housing to move government employees into. Close proximity to Ellington Air Force base. Proximity to a major city with a good international airport. Good year-round weather so you could count on astronauts flying in and out and training at Ellington without problems. LBJ was bosom buddies with the big local engineering and construction companies that could get things done fast without the complications of building in California or bribery needed in New York real estate. (Not that LBJ was above a bit of bribery when needed.)

I'm sure the White House made many promises for unrelated programs in many other states to get the votes needed for Congressional approval in the normal horse trading that goes on in government. There are undoubtedly more details to this that didn’t make it into the papers.  I don’t know what Rice U got out of it directly except perhaps the famous Kennedy “Why does Rice play Texas?” speech. But as a the major research university in the state they must have welcomed it on their back yard. 

BTW, after Kennedy made his speech at Rice Stadium, he went on a tour of the Manned Space Flight Center.  Since the Clear Lake campus was under construction, the center was housed in pre-existing industrial buildings. This is where he did the tour.  https://goo.gl/maps/TE2B5WbUxLT2

This was the headquarters building.  Now the offices of the Houston Parks Department. https://goo.gl/maps/JYksHdbS84F2

[bobdude11]

As am I … I think I know the reason for locating in Houston, but I am most curious as to all of them. Even when you know or think you know, you will ALWAYS learn something new!!

Here is the version I know:

LBJ was put in charge of the process because he knew how to wheel and deal in Congress as well as anyone.  He knew that to get approval, the program needed to be spread around.  California already had plenty of aerospace to benefit.  New York had its own aerospace industry and lousy weather.  Alabama had the Redstone Arsenal where rockets were being developed.  Florida was the only place for a launch complex. Texas made the obvious place politically for the Manned Space headquarters. AND it was LBJ's home state.

The location near Houston:

Exxon (actually the predecessor by name) had a large land development south of Houston and needed some industry to lure people southeast of Houston while the Gulf freeway was under construction. The development business was, I think, mostly an offshoot of the relative tax incentives of the time.  Exxon offered the land to LBJ for free.

Any politician with his salt, and LBJ was a salty guy, wouldn't look this gift horse in its mouth. A corporation or a person cannot give a gift like this to the government. So, a deal was worked out for Exxon to give the land to Rice University without encumbrance. Rice then donated the land to the government. It was not in the City of Houston at the time. Houston and Texas are very forward looking and welcomed the investment and jobs.

Clear Lake had plenty of benefits for NASA. A huge tract of flat grazing land. Cheap new housing to move government employees into. Close proximity to Ellington Air Force base. Proximity to a major city with a good international airport. Good year-round weather so you could count on astronauts flying in and out and training at Ellington without problems. LBJ was bosom buddies with the big local engineering and construction companies that could get things done fast without the complications of building in California or bribery needed in New York real estate. (Not that LBJ was above a bit of bribery when needed.)

I'm sure the White House made many promises for unrelated programs in many other states to get the votes needed for Congressional approval in the normal horse trading that goes on in government. There are undoubtedly more details to this that didn’t make it into the papers.  I don’t know what Rice U got out of it directly except perhaps the famous Kennedy “Why does Rice play Texas?” speech. But as a the major research university in the state they must have welcomed it on their back yard. 

BTW, after Kennedy made his speech at Rice Stadium, he went on a tour of the Manned Space Flight Center.  Since the Clear Lake campus was under construction, the center was housed in pre-existing industrial buildings. This is where he did the tour.  https://goo.gl/maps/TE2B5WbUxLT2

This was the headquarters building.  Now the offices of the Houston Parks Department. https://goo.gl/maps/JYksHdbS84F2

See, I grew up in Texas (well, I am still here … cause why leave? ) and I didn't know much of that.
At least, I don't recall knowing much of that. It is possible I read about it somewhere, but I feel safe in saying I learnt sumthin' today!!

I wonder if they have any memorabilia in the building? Perhaps some stuff that had been tucked away in a storage closet they found and have displayed … I know, I'll just show up and ask them to show me the NASA stuff from the 1960's …

[Echnaton]

I wonder if they have any memorabilia in the building? Perhaps some stuff that had been tucked away in a storage closet they found and have displayed … I know, I'll just show up and ask them to show me the NASA stuff from the 1960's …

I don't know how many owners or tenants have gone through the building since NASA moved out.  I doubt NASA made a lot of changes in the building because they new it was a temporary arrangement.  Similarly, because to the short tennenancy and moving to a much larger facility, they likely hadn't  accumulated much stuff to leave behind in the closets.  Just my guess. And If I had been the next tennent, I'd have scoured the place for souvenirs.

BTW here's a photo of the NASA headquarters opening and the opening celebration when the Houston Park's Department took over. It's doesn't show anything other than that it is the same sign frame.
 

[mako88sb]

Looks like Jr might have finally figured out he's in over his head. I think the knockout punch to his version of reality is this great post by Jay.

Here is the discussion of this "critical" failure in the LM.

16.2.12 Thrust Chamber Pressure Switches

The switch used to monitor the quad 2 aft-firing engine (A2A) exhibited a low response to jet driver commands during most of the mission.  During an 18-minute period just prior to terminal phase initiation, the switch failed to respond to seven consecutive minimum impulse commands.  This resulted in a master alarm and a thruster warning flag, which were reset by the crew. The engine operated normally, and the switch failure had no effect on the mission. The crew did not attempt any investigative procedures to determine whether the engine had actually failed. A section drawing of the switch is shown in figure 16-18.

This failure was the first of its type to be observed in flight or in ground testing. The switch closing response (time of jet driver "on" command to switch closure) appeared to increase from an average of about 15 to 20 milliseconds during station-keeping to 25 to 30 milliseconds at the time of failure. Normal switch closing response is 10 to 12 milliseconds based on ground test results . The closing response remained at the 25- to 3o-millisecond level following the failure, and the switch continued to fail to respond to some minimum impulse commands. The switch opening time (time from jet driver "off" command to switch opening) appeared to be normal throughout the mission. In view of these results, it appears that the most probable cause of the switch failure was particulate contamination in the inlet passage of the switch. Contamination in this area would reduce the flow rate of chamber gases into the diaphragm cavity, thereby reducing the switch closing response. However, the contamination would not necessarily affect switch opening response since normal chamber pressure tailoff requires about 30 to 40 milliseconds to decrease from about 30 psia to the normal switch opening pressure of about 4 psia.  The 30- to 40-millisecond time would probably be sufficient to allow the gases in the diaphragm cavity to vent such that the switch would open normally.

The crews for future missions will be briefed to recognize and handle similar situations.

Now I'm going to explain to you everything that's wrong with your analysis of the problem.

1. Jet A2A is for yaw control only.  It could fail permanently and entirely, and the ability of the LM to maintain yaw control would not be affected.  Its pitch and roll control would be unaffected, and were unaffected by this anomaly.  (Note that the report specifically says this failure had no effect on the mission.)

2. The failure was not of the RCS system as a whole, but was isolated to a single jet that was fully redundant.

3. The failure did not last 18 minutes in the sense that the ship was out of control for 18 minutes.  The data say that a failure was indicated seven discrete times within a given 18-minute period defined by mission phases.

4. The failure was not with the jet, but with the chamber pressure sensor monitoring the operation of the jet.  Its only job is to provide a signal to the computer that the jet has responded as commanded.  The jet was, in fact, firing.  The worst-case outcome if this failure had become permanent would have been a false-positive signal to the RCS logic of a jet failure.  The A2A jet can be lost without any effect on the mission, and actual jet failure can be diagnosed by other means, providing for the crew to override the false indication.

5. The failure was simply a sluggishness in the response of the sensor.  This matters only in minimum-impulse mode, also called pulse-mode.  In this mode the jets are pulsed for only a few milliseconds as a means of fine-grained attitude control.  This is consistent with observations from earlier in the mission where the indicator had been sluggish.  In longer RCS burns the sensor functioned adequately.

Now go back and re-examine your fretful, panicky analogy to losing steering on a dark, desolate road.  Isn't it about time you just admit you really don't understand the engineering behind these spacecraft, and that you're just plain wrong?

[Zakalwe]

Yep. I called a stealth flounce a few pages back.
Another willfully ignorant intellectual coward bites the dust.

[bobdude11]

I wonder if they have any memorabilia in the building? Perhaps some stuff that had been tucked away in a storage closet they found and have displayed … I know, I'll just show up and ask them to show me the NASA stuff from the 1960's …

I don't know how many owners or tenants have gone through the building since NASA moved out.  I doubt NASA made a lot of changes in the building because they new it was a temporary arrangement.  Similarly, because to the short tennenancy and moving to a much larger facility, they likely hadn't  accumulated much stuff to leave behind in the closets.  Just my guess. And If I had been the next tennent, I'd have scoured the place for souvenirs.

BTW here's a photo of the NASA headquarters opening and the opening celebration when the Houston Park's Department took over. It's doesn't show anything other than that it is the same sign frame.
 

Thank you for this. I love to learn new things and you have helped immensely.

[JayUtah]

Yep. I called a stealth flounce a few pages back.
Another willfully ignorant intellectual coward bites the dust.

...or has figured out that he needs to wait longer before trying to come back and change the subject.

[grmcdorman]

Yep. I called a stealth flounce a few pages back.
Another willfully ignorant intellectual coward bites the dust.

...or has figured out believes that he needs to wait longer before trying to come back and change the subject.

FTFY.

I know none of us, and you in particular, would let him get away with that game.

* Off topic: ISF has 'strikeout' tags; apparently they're not available here? (Looks like it must be a phpBB extension, not a standard code).

[bknight]

Yep. I called a stealth flounce a few pages back.
Another willfully ignorant intellectual coward bites the dust.

...or has figured out believes that he needs to wait longer before trying to come back and change the subject.

FTFY.

I know none of us, and you in particular, would let him get away with that game.

* Off topic: ISF has 'strikeout' tags; apparently they're not available here? (Looks like it must be a phpBB extension, not a standard code).

Are these what you're looking for?

[grmcdorman]

Yep. I called a stealth flounce a few pages back.
Another willfully ignorant intellectual coward bites the dust.

...or has figured out believes that he needs to wait longer before trying to come back and change the subject.

FTFY.

I know none of us, and you in particular, would let him get away with that game.

* Off topic: ISF has 'strikeout' tags; apparently they're not available here? (Looks like it must be a phpBB extension, not a standard code).

Are these what you're looking for?

Yes! Thank you; it's of course different than other BB implementations. ("Nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" )