Author Topic: Wonderful Photographs from Mars  (Read 112449 times)

Offline sts60

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2012, 11:13:47 AM »
The craft was sent in slightly roundabout way so as to approach Mars at an angle making it easier to get into orbit round MARS - a bit disappointing if they just flew close by off into the middle distance.
No.  You have no idea what you're talking about.

First, MSL was sent on a trajectory that was optimized for the capability of the launch vehicle, and took advantage of the favorable positions of Earth and Mars during the launch window, to get there as fast as it could given the ability of the launch vehicle to send it on its way and the ability of the entry system to get it safely into the atmosphere.   That's not "roundabout" in any meaningful sense.

Second, MSL did not enter orbit around Mars.  It was a direct-entry mission; it flew to Mars and directly into the atmosphere, slowing down by the simple expedient of plowing straight into the atmosphere.  This is called "aerobraking" and has been used by all the Martian rover missions.

Your claim is simply wrong.  Perhaps you should re-evaluate your position in light of the numerous errors of fact you have made.  No one will think badly of you for this.

Offline Chew

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2012, 12:14:00 PM »
The craft was sent in slightly roundabout way so as to approach Mars at an angle making it easier to get into orbit round MARS - a bit disappointing if they just flew close by off into the middle distance.

It is a very common misunderstanding that spacecraft can fly in straight lines between planets. It is impossible to do that without an almost infinite fuel supply. All paths between planets must be made using orbits around the Sun of various sizes and eccentricities.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2012, 05:52:58 PM »
I've not found the papers that discuss the design of a direct descent trajectory to the Martian surface, but I can make an informed guess about why it was done as it was.

As sts60 pointed out, the interplanetary trajectory was designed simply to get MSL to Mars using the least amount of fuel. This required launching when Earth and Mars were in the right positions, something that happens for only a few days at a time every 2+ years. It also required launching at a specific time of day when KSC passed through the plane of the desired Earth parking orbit. As with Apollo, MSL first entered a low Earth parking orbit, coasted, and then fired its upper stage a second time to inject it into its trajectory to Mars. And in both missions the launch azimuth (direction) and coast period were adjusted to account for the exact launch date and time.

The trajectory designers could have aimed MSL anywhere on or near the Martian disc as seen by the approaching spacecraft. Because it was headed for Gale Crater on the equator, it obviously had to target some point along the equator. But where? Had it hit the center of the disc, it would have entered the atmosphere at a very steep angle and been quickly destroyed by the extreme deceleration and heating. It had to shoot for the edge of the disc, just Apollo did when returning from the moon. During cruise MSL's speed was adjusted very slightly so it would arrive at this point above Mars just as Gale Crater was passing under it.

But which edge? If you shoot for the 'left' or western edge (with north 'up'), your velocity relative to the Martian atmosphere (which rotates with the planet) would be your own heliocentric velocity plus that of Mars own west-to-east rotation. If you shoot for the 'right' or eastern edge, then Mars' rotation speed subtracts from your own velocity and your velocity relative to the atmosphere is lower. That makes the entry much less stressful, so that's the one you choose.

So you shoot for a target point somewhere in the Martian atmosphere that is low enough to ensure capture but not so low that you descend too steeply and burn up. It was just like an Apollo re-entry from the moon except that Mars has only 1/3 Earth's gravity and 1% of Earth's surface atmospheric pressure. The Apollo entry angle was 6.5 degrees; anybody happen to know the figure for the MSL entry?

This created one unavoidable problem: as seen from Earth, MSL went around the right edge of Mars shortly after entry, making it impossible for MSL to communicate directly to earth all the way to the surface. Fortunately, JPL arranged for the active Mars orbiting spacecraft to be in the vicinity at the time so they could relay real-time communications to Earth. This worked remarkably well; without them we would not have known about the successful landing for another 12+ hours when the landing site came around the other edge of Mars and in view of Earth again.


Offline Tanalia

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2012, 10:53:24 PM »
The Apollo entry angle was 6.5 degrees; anybody happen to know the figure for the MSL entry?
This MSL Interplanetary Navigation Analysis (1,74 MB PDF) from JPL looks like it assumes -15.50 for EFPA (Table 5).    I've also seen the number -15.7 while looking around, but haven't seen anything stating that it's the actual value.

Offline RedneckR0nin

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2012, 02:34:45 AM »
So let me get this straight...the new Mars rover is also a hoax now? Why on Earth would NASA fake this? I swear to god NASA beats out MgM or Universal for big budget feature films or something. Just spend billions on research and development to produce films that the Zionist Jews in Hollywood produce for much less(I at least got that right don't I? All Jews are Zionists and underhanded aren't they?)
It's total truly about a inability to distinguish between creditable sources and info leads to everything being a conspiracy.
We landed..you too can learn this if you research

Offline Tedward

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2012, 03:21:05 AM »
As night follows day, someone will be making a case via text or video or dissection of the information sent back to prove their claim of a fake.

It will happen on the next one, and the next etc.

Offline Glom

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2012, 05:20:47 AM »
I'm confused about why conspirators would point out something that would suggest their duplicity.

Much like the way conspiracy theorists get in a tizzy over Armstrong saying Tranquility base looked the high desert of Earth. If it actually was, it's probably best to ixnay such omparisonscay.

Offline Jockndoris

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2012, 05:45:50 AM »
The craft was sent in slightly roundabout way so as to approach Mars at an angle making it easier to get into orbit round MARS - a bit disappointing if they just flew close by off into the middle distance.

It is a very common misunderstanding that spacecraft can fly in straight lines between planets. It is impossible to do that without an almost infinite fuel supply. All paths between planets must be made using orbits around the Sun of various sizes and eccentricities.
  Well done  you understand how it is done

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2012, 06:14:49 AM »
Yes he does. And so do most of us. What does it have to do with your earlier point?

You're not really big on the whole 'discussion' part of this forum, are you?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline carpediem

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2012, 06:39:28 AM »
Well done  you understand how it is done
So you admit that the mission is real now?

Offline Jockndoris

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2012, 07:59:17 AM »
Absolutely not    - NASA may have sent three craft to MARS but I don't trust their photographs at all.   They are far too good and far too quick.
They did exactly the same with the supposed landings on the Moon which were only acheived on the NASA Mission Control simulators.
"Failure is not an option " and NASA control everything - orbiting craft and all the communications so they can send us anything they choose.
They had astronauts in cumbersome spacesuits taking perfect pictures from a simple camera set on their chests and we cheered!!
Have you seen my post in 2009 headed "Who shot Neil Armstrong?"   Have you ever thought about that ?   If he was the first man to step foot on the Moon then who took the shot of him - it couldn't be Buzz Aldrin as he was still inside -  so it must have been CNN or SKY?
In fact the whole thing was set up in advance as a simulation and when we all swallowed the first one the next few Apollo missions were easy.
I am absolutely certain they couldn't do it then and I am far from convinced that they could do it now.
Lets see what the spectroanalysis shows from this wondrerful gadget they have - if they don't produce something new then my case is proved.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2012, 08:16:41 AM »
Absolutely not    - NASA may have sent three craft to MARS but I don't trust their photographs at all.   They are far too good and far too quick.

Then tell us what should of happened and why your expectations of the photo quality and transmission times are relevant.  Please show your work. Until you do this, your argument can be dismissed as just bluffing. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline BertL

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Re: Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2012, 08:24:18 AM »
Have you seen my post in 2009 headed "Who shot Neil Armstrong?"   Have you ever thought about that ?   If he was the first man to step foot on the Moon then who took the shot of him - it couldn't be Buzz Aldrin as he was still inside -  so it must have been CNN or SKY?
Is this one on the bingo card as well?

Offline LunarOrbit

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Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2012, 08:33:56 AM »
Is this one on the bingo card as well?

I'll have to check. If not, I'll have to add it.


Edited to add: The bingo card includes "Who filmed Neil Armstrong making his first steps?" and also "Who filmed the LM lifting off from the moon?". I will allow any variation of "Who is the mysterious third person who took this picture or film?"
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:44:39 AM by LunarOrbit »
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Wonderful Photographs from Mars
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2012, 08:42:28 AM »
Have you seen my post in 2009 headed "Who shot Neil Armstrong?"   Have you ever thought about that ?   If he was the first man to step foot on the Moon then who took the shot of him - it couldn't be Buzz Aldrin as he was still inside -  so it must have been CNN or SKY?

Seriously? Is that the best evidence you've got? You need to think. Have you ever considered that there might have been a remotely operated camera mounted to the outside of the spacecraft for specifically that purpose?

Are you really going to tell me that that makes less sense to you than the idea that the whole Apollo program was faked?
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)