Author Topic: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?  (Read 128717 times)

Offline Chew

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2012, 07:58:44 PM »
Gillianren, it is rather presumptious of you to state categorically that non-believers do not understand scientific prinicples per se.

Hardly. I have never met a hoax believer that understood the simplest scientific principles. They all make hilarious errors in Newton's Laws of Motion, gravitation, thermodynamics, celestial mechanics, etc. Here's a very recent example:

It took the craft 7 months to get to Mars at full speed...

Offline Trebor

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2012, 08:09:56 PM »
Gillianren, it is rather presumptious of you to state categorically that non-believers do not understand scientific prinicples per se.

I have made the same observation myself.
For example I have recently been speaking to a 'non-believer' who has also stated that rockets can not work in a vacuum. I am sure you understand the problem with that claim...

Offline smartcooky

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2012, 08:21:55 PM »
Gillianren, it is rather presumptious of you to state categorically that non-believers do not understand scientific prinicples per se. Nevertheless, certain contentions by non-believers, leading to their doubts, cannot be explained using scientific principles.

Actually, what she has stated is categorically true.

A Hoax Believer who understands even the most fundamental Laws of Physics is an oxymoron.

Now while I understand that some of the things that HB's propose as "inconsistencies" cannot be explained with scientific principles, there are certain fundamental premises of the Hoax Theory, that, if proven false means that the whole theory falls over. Here are two examples;

Lunar Gravity -  There is NO place on Earth that can serve as an artificial alternative to this. The fact that the Lunar Gravity makes objects fall at 1.63 m/s cannot be falsified or faked.

Vacuum - Building a vacuum chamber big enough to serve as an EVA studio is impossible. The biggest one available now is hundreds of times too small.

It would be impossible for any reasonable person to truly understand the scientific principles involved, and still be a true Hoax Believe.r
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 08:36:39 PM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline cjameshuff

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2012, 08:23:58 PM »
Some more notable examples:

I do not agree you see the moon unlike the earth does Emmit lot and lots oflight when The  moon is full. Albedo is not measured by percent Actually the lower the albedo the more light is being emitted I attached a real picture of the moon it is definitely emitting light

And of course:
Quote from: Moon Man
How high above the surface of the moon does this alleged vacuum start..?

I'm another who's never seen a hoax believer who wasn't scientifically illiterate, but humans have an immense capacity for self delusion, so such a thing might exist. A hoax believer who is not only scientifically literate but can provide rational support for their beliefs? No such creature exists.

Offline nomuse

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2012, 08:40:39 PM »
Nomuse, you do yourself no favours by referring to hoax believers as 'deniers' - nevertheless, disbelievers would level the same accusations at you. Another term which believers use, often with no justification, is that of 'liar'. This seems to be an easy copout. I, in turn, have noticed that believers have not always answered my questions (some have been unique - not anything which Sibrel, Rene et al. have concocted). 

First off, the emotional baggage of the term is not mandatory.  There are people who deny that the Apollo Missions took place.  This is a literal statement. 

However, the emotional baggage is not unwelcome.  This is a pattern of behavior; they do not act like people engaging a question or exploring an idea.  They react by negation, changing tactics, calls to emotion; whatever will get them a pre-determined result.  This is a pattern of denial, not inquiry.


I think it works both ways. Those who have always championed the moon landings as authentic, will not easily alter their point of view, and vice versa.  Believers are of the opinion that their explanations always make sense, that their 'logic' is always unimpeachable, yet non-believers often honestly do not see it that way. I agree that many non-believers would be too hard-headed to admit being misled on certain points. It's not easy to admit that one is wrong, but it serves no purpose lying to oneself.  If answers to questions make sense and are logical, I will accept them. Time will tell.

This is true, but only to a point.

When you get down to detail, you will discover that "believers" (those who accept the narrative of Apollo) will accept corrections.  They will get things wrong.  They will be corrected by others.  They will openly admit it, and learn from it.

On the "other side" you wish to see as a mirror, these things take place rarely.  Deniers argue corrections, and when pressed, either change the argument or change venues.  They also NEVER correct each other.  It doesn't matter how insanely stupid the Apollo Denier to their left is, they will never call them out on it or make an effort to correct them.  That, more than anything else, reveals the falseness of claims of equivalency.

Offline nomuse

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2012, 08:44:57 PM »
Gillianren, it is rather presumptious of you to state categorically that non-believers do not understand scientific prinicples per se. Nevertheless, certain contentions by non-believers, leading to their doubts, cannot be explained using scientific principles.

...which makes those contentions (aka belief in giant conspiracies, indulgence in arm-chair psychology, sophist attacks on the basis that absolute proof is impossible) extremely attractive to the deniers.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2012, 09:07:49 PM »
There are however, a few points which I will mention over my next few posts which have not (according to my viewpoint) been satisfactorily answered, some of which do not involve physics in any form.  Perhaps they will be answered here.
Another prominent characteristic of Apollo deniers, because that is what they are, is the statement that they will at some point ask important questions or elucidate some unexplained mystery about Apollo, but in the meantime will berate everyone for not being sufficiently polite to the denier community.   Let us hope you will get to your points and not get sidetracked.  And hope you will understand and properly address the responses to your points.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Chew

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2012, 09:22:30 PM »
More scientific illiteracy in this thread: http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=3011

Edwardwb1001, can you provide a single example of a moon hoaxer demonstrating even a basic level of scientific literacy?

Offline gillianren

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2012, 10:01:08 PM »
Gillianren, it is rather presumptious of you to state categorically that non-believers do not understand scientific prinicples per se. Nevertheless, certain contentions by non-believers, leading to their doubts, cannot be explained using scientific principles.

If you understand scientific principles and apply them to the Apollo missions, there is no conclusion other than that the missions really happened as described.  You can argue that point all you like, but that's how simple it really is.  The missions were literally impossible to fake as presented.  No one has ever presented a scientifically reasonable means of faking all the evidence.  This also means that deniers don't understand that finding a single "smoking gun" isn't enough to discount all the rest of the evidence, surely its own failure to understand how science works.

And the more you delve into the conspiracists, the more you realize that some are lying.  More than a few.  They cannot be otherwise.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline cos

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2012, 10:08:01 PM »
More scientific illiteracy in this thread: http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=3011


And in typical HB fashion, after 10 pages of the most obstinate arguing, he is conclusively shown to be wrong (having been shown the textbooks he insists didn't exist) he slinks off without so much as an acknowledgement. 

Offline Trebor

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2012, 10:11:06 PM »
..., but after the advent of the internet, youtube and discussion forums, it became increasingly difficult to keep a lid on the many anomalies prevalent in the Apollo record.

What 'anomalies'? And do be specific.

Offline sts60

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2012, 12:17:47 AM »
I think it works both ways. Those who have always championed the moon landings as authentic, will not easily alter their point of view, and vice versa.  Believers are of the opinion that their explanations always make sense, that their 'logic' is always unimpeachable, yet non-believers often honestly do not see it that way...
I would not call myself a "believer"; the correct term is "engineer", with a couple of decades in aerospace, and I have worked for and with Apollo engineers and Apollo-era astronauts.  I have never seen - not once, in nearly a decade of participating in "hoax" discussions - anyone make an argument which accounted for the entirety of the evidence that the Apollo crews landed on and returned from the Moon.  In fact, not one of the hoax claimants I've encountered has even grasped the scope of the evidence, let alone understood most of it.   

Sorry, but there aren't always two sides to every story, and opposing views are not always worthy of equal respect.   I don't simply believe Apollo happened because I was told so, but because I understand it.  I won't easily alter my opinion as to the reality of Apollo because I am reasonably familiar with the record, I understand much of how it works, I use some of the same techniques and knowledge in my own work, and I have had first-hand opportunity to judge the competence and integrity of some of those who made it happen. 

But perhaps you will have something novel to offer in the way of hoax claims, and will be the first to offer a comprehensive and realistic alternative to the record; I look forward to your arguments.

Offline Andromeda

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2012, 04:47:40 AM »


There are however, a few points which I will mention over my next few posts which have not (according to my viewpoint) been satisfactorily answered, some of which do not involve physics in any form. 

Okay, a quick way to get people annoyed here is to insist you have a whole list of things to talk about but you refuse to reveal them yet.  Just say what you have to say.


Perhaps they will be answered here.

They will be.  Will you accept the answers?


Nomuse, you do yourself no favours by referring to hoax believers as 'deniers'

You have only just joined but already tried to insult (three) established members.  Please don't do that.  If someone denies an event occurred, they are a "denier".  It is not a value judgement, just a shorthand way of referring to their beliefs.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Tedward

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2012, 05:06:10 AM »
I would say that when something can be established as was and can be proven, then the hoax believer who is opposed to this and cannot refute it is a denier shirley? No amount of youtube or other interweb tomfoolery is going to change things.

Revelations. Why does this theme crop up? Stump it up, get it out in the open, you will feel better. Or is it the usual pattern, trying to build suspense..... I might tell you what I found under a rock in my garden later... there, have some suspense back...

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2012, 05:15:42 AM »
There are however, a few points which I will mention over my next few posts which have not (according to my viewpoint) been satisfactorily answered, some of which do not involve physics in any form.  Perhaps they will be answered here.

They will if you actually get on with posting them. Why are you wasting time arguing these points rather than presenting what you believe to be your most important questions?

I should mention that we have seen this over and over again from others: promising 'I have some good points to bring to the table' and not actually delivering, procrastinating by picking apart the minute details of the conversation thus far rather than dealing with the substance of their questions. Please don't be just another of them.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain