Author Topic: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked  (Read 11628 times)

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2024, 12:06:30 AM »
NASA was not run in that manner every group knew what other groups were doing.  You lose big time.  Yes, NASA was/is compartmentalized, but they all know and work together.
The LM was a complete vehicle regardles of what you think, look up the pices aand you will find out.
Wrong, they were highly compartmentalized.  And without computers to help them with their 400,000 person Gannt chart, for hundreds of teams working across the entire USA.

The LM was real -- it just wasn't capable of (safely doing?) the landings/ascents.  They tried; really tried.

There's good reason they threw out the LM design/test docs, as they destroyed the evidence that this LM was insufficient for the task.


Offline Mag40

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2024, 08:37:57 AM »
There's good reason they threw out the LM design/test docs, as they destroyed the evidence that this LM was insufficient for the task.
Repeating the lie. Where the hell IS this integrity you suggest you wanted to demonstrate. Grumman built these machines - they built them fit for purpose or a very significant number of engineers are being called into question. Your insinuations and fumbling suggestions mean nothing.

www.clavius.org/scale.html

Offline bknight

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2024, 09:08:02 AM »
NASA was not run in that manner every group knew what other groups were doing.  You lose big time.  Yes, NASA was/is compartmentalized, but they all know and work together.
The LM was a complete vehicle regardles of what you think, look up the pices aand you will find out.
Wrong, they were highly compartmentalized.  And without computers to help them with their 400,000 person Gannt chart, for hundreds of teams working across the entire USA.

The LM was real -- it just wasn't capable of (safely doing?) the landings/ascents.  They tried; really tried.

There's good reason they threw out the LM design/test docs, as they destroyed the evidence that this LM was insufficient for the task.
Wrong on all statements.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Peter B

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2024, 09:27:06 AM »
In their minds, Apollogists happily summarize their foundation with many dishonest claims, such as:
1. 400,000 people couldn't have all lied.  (this hoax required the work of a few hundred - military men who firmly understand the nature of Top Secret and Treason).
2. Nations around the world validated it as it was happening. (a few, claims, with no lasting evidence, and no witnesses specified except a few names)
3. Amateurs around the world validated it as it was happening.  (we have one)
4. Russia had no reason to congratulate us if we lied.
5. 50,000 samples have been given out to 500 labs in over 15 nations (not true).

Yeah, let's go through these points.

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1. 400,000 people couldn't have all lied.  (this hoax required the work of a few hundred - military men who firmly understand the nature of Top Secret and Treason).

You seriously misunderstand the extent to which the engineers in the different contracting and sub-contracting companies needed to talk to each other. For example, the people designing the space suits needed to talk to the people designing the Command Module and the people designing the Lunar Module, because at different points in the mission the suits would be supplied by oxygen from the two spacecraft, so they needed to be sure all three connections were compatible. And that's just one of many such interactions.

You suggest the LM was real but couldn't be made to land on the Moon. According to that hypothesis there must have been teams of engineers who couldn't make the component they were working on function as intended. Yet somehow they were able to interact with related teams of engineers as described in the preceding paragraph without arousing any suspicions. That sounds implausible, so I eagerly await your evidence for the existence of such non-functional components.

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2. Nations around the world validated it as it was happening. (a few, claims, with no lasting evidence, and no witnesses specified except a few names)

Looks like you didn't look too hard.

Can I point you to the www.honeysucklecreek.net website, dedicated to the tracking station just outside Canberra which was one of the three stations used to communicate with the Apollo missions. The (Australian) staff who worked there remain happy to talk about their work, took a heap of photos during missions (including of the highest quality TV image anyone saw in Apollo 11), and one of the staff even spoke directly to the crew of Apollo 16 at one point.

They have explained how they know they were receiving a signal from the Moon, and how it couldn't have come from anywhere else. One of the staff explained to me how he tried to work out how NASA could have perpetrated a hoax without the Honeysuckle Creek staff knowing, and was unable to (though I assume you'll say he didn't try too hard).

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3. Amateurs around the world validated it as it was happening.  (we have one)

You can add Swede Sven Grahn to that list (http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/). He was part of a team of amateurs who picked up signals from Apollo 17. Some signals were from the spacecraft in lunar orbit, while other signals were definitely from the surface. I'll leave it up to you to either search his website, or work out for yourself how it would be possible to tell the difference.

And obviously, in addition to the amateurs tracking the missions, were the professionals in the USSR who also tracked the missions.

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4. Russia had no reason to congratulate us if we lied.

No comment about this? Remember, the Space Race was another front in the Cold War, one which both the USA and USSR were highly motivated to win. The whole purpose of the Space Race was to convince countries around the world that their science and technology was better than the other guys' science and technology. Therefore, being caught lying about an achievement in the Space Race would destroy their credibility in the Space Race in the eyes of the world.

Therefore, both the USA and USSR were limited in their ability to fib. The USSR managed it by not announcing missions until they'd been successfully launched, by releasing as little information as they could get away with, and letting eager Western journalists over-interpret things. So, for example, while the Soviets misled the West about the nature of the Voskhod 1 spacecraft, they couldn't hide the fact of the mission because people on Earth could and did track the mission.

By contrast the USA didn't hide anything except medical information about the astronauts. Journalists had easy access to NASA and to the astronauts.

We also know the Soviets were receiving information about Apollo from contacts within NASA and its contractors.

And because the Soviets operated spacecraft in every part of space and the Moon where the Apollo missions went, we know the Soviets knew the details of those environments. Therefore, the ability of the USA to lie about those environments was non-existent.

Put all of that together, and it's clear the Soviets had (a) an accurate understanding of what Apollo involved and (b) clear knowledge that Apollo was real.

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5. 50,000 samples have been given out to 500 labs in over 15 nations (not true).

Not true? Just like that you know it's not true. Sorry, but you're going to have to do a little better than that.

Have you been to the Lunar and Planetary Institute website (www.lpi.usra.edu) and checked out their Lunar Sample Atlas? Pick a rock at random (say, Apollo 12 sample 12035), and download the summary document which includes photos, a list of the rock's minerals, it's chemical composition, a summary of geochemical studies, and a list of 20 scientific papers about just that one rock. Now repeat that for literally thousands of individually numbered rock samples.

As scientists have explained to me, they know the Apollo rocks must be from the Moon, can't be fake, can't be from the Earth, can't be lunar meteorites, and can't have been collected by unmanned sample retriever missions.

Feel free to explain how these scientists don't know what they're talking about, or accept that people collected those rocks from the surface of the Moon.
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Offline Mag40

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2024, 12:45:19 PM »
There's good reason they threw out the LM design/test docs, as they destroyed the evidence that this LM was insufficient for the task.
Repeating the lie. Where the hell IS this integrity you suggest you wanted to demonstrate. Grumman built these machines - they built them fit for purpose or a very significant number of engineers are being called into question. Your insinuations and fumbling suggestions mean nothing.

www.clavius.org/scale.html
Digging through my old bookmarks (very disappointed that some links are now expired websites), managed to find this lot:
http://heroicrelics.org/info/lm/lm-structural.html
https://archive.org/details/apertureCardBox515NARASW_images/page/n539/mode/2up
https://archive.org/details/apertureCardBox502NARASW_images

https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/links.html#gsc.tab=0
https://www.nasa.gov/history/diagrams/apollo.html


I definitely recall from years gone by where Grumman's detailed drawings were online in their entirety. Something completely out of NASA's control:
https://www.bonhams.com/auction/23378/lot/50/grumman-lunar-module-documents/

In the interests of compiling references, if anyone else has some, that would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 12:57:24 PM by Mag40 »

Offline bknight

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2024, 01:04:39 PM »
There's good reason they threw out the LM design/test docs, as they destroyed the evidence that this LM was insufficient for the task.
Repeating the lie. Where the hell IS this integrity you suggest you wanted to demonstrate. Grumman built these machines - they built them fit for purpose or a very significant number of engineers are being called into question. Your insinuations and fumbling suggestions mean nothing.

www.clavius.org/scale.html
najak Why would an agency store/keep records on a program thatis defunct and has no more funding, no life, no prospects, no launches?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2024, 02:25:51 PM »
Feel free to explain how these scientists don't know what they're talking about, or accept that people collected those rocks from the surface of the Moon.
Thank you for responding.  For me, you just illustrated that even the Apollogists here, do not see an issue with the hyperbole claims of the Apollogy.

The evidence that remains to substantiate these claims is miniscule.   Honeysuckle has 67 second audio clip which simply matches... where is the chain-of-custody for this audio clip?   And how do we know it was broadcast directly from the S-Band of the LM on the surface of the moon?   - we don't.

Where are the S-Band transmission tapes themselves?  Gone.   With all of the rest of the source tapes.

The dirty details behind each claim are not noted...  purposefully skewing the "claim" to make it seem far more substantial than it truly is.

Claim -- "thousands of Amateurs witnessed it" -- we have ONE -- Larry Baysinger and his friend, for 30 minutes.   They CLAIM.  Where are these recordings?  How many witnesses claimed to hear these recordings?  ZERO, AFAIK...     This is ALL of the evidence that back up that BIG CLAIM.

I'll stop here.  You confirmed for me that the basis upon which this Apollo Religion was founded, is a exaggerations with much less substantiation than most people know. 

Apollogists are not motivated to be Truthful - they are motivated to be "Convincing" -- and so accept without question/concern - the skewed/exaggerations that support their beliefs/religion.

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2024, 03:02:55 PM »
Digging through my old bookmarks (very disappointed that some links are now expired websites), managed to find this lot:
http://heroicrelics.org/info/lm/lm-structural.html
https://archive.org/details/apertureCardBox515NARASW_images/page/n539/mode/2up
https://archive.org/details/apertureCardBox502NARASW_images
https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/links.html#gsc.tab=0
https://www.nasa.gov/history/diagrams/apollo.html
https://www.bonhams.com/auction/23378/lot/50/grumman-lunar-module-documents/

This is a great start.  Thanks for sharing!

The first link of the "LM diagram" was interesting... but without Weights or measurements.  There should be a master diagram that shows measurements.

Then there needs to a "Weight & Balance" worksheet (or the equivalent) for the LM.  This is something all aviators know about and is even more vital to LM/AM which undergoes high fidelity rotations about the center of mass.

This sheet should at minimum, indicate the 3D center of mass for the empty hull, along with it's rotational inertia ratings (used to calculate "how much torque/time it takes to rotate it in each direction").

The drawings shown here may "look substantial" to an most people, but this barely scratches the surface:
http://heroicrelics.org/info/lm/lm-4-full-download.php

What I believe NO LONGER EXISTS, but would love to see:
1. Weight & Balance information for the Hull, and expected contents (and compartments where expected contents will go - e.g. moon rocks, helmets, etc).
     The summary of this document would be short -- a few pages... a diagram to picture the various component sets, and the worksheet - for each component, shows Mass and XYZ arm measurement.

2. Detailed architectural diagram with measurements.   A few dozen pages of measurements and physical layouts and geometry.


Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2024, 03:08:02 PM »
najak Why would an agency store/keep records on a program thatis defunct and has no more funding, no life, no prospects, no launches?
It's part of "Man's Greatest Achievement" - so saving just a few stacks of boxes is cheap.   Or give it to a museum.

The documents I'm seeing so far are still very lacking.  I'd like to see something with actual "meat on the bones" from the TOP LEVEL of the LM.

1. Full architectural 3D layout, with measurements/angles.
2. Simplified "Weight & Balance + Inertia" worksheet that is VITAL (would show HULL, humans, equipment, water, oxygen, fuel, oxidizer tanks) -- both with and without the Lander base attached.

This way you can calculate, as it lands or ascends, the Torque/time required by the RCS thrusters to adjust the module's attitude (yaw/pitch/roll).

Offline Mag40

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2024, 03:33:55 PM »
This is a great start.  Thanks for sharing!
You're welcome. Quite why you couldn't do this yourself is the question.

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The first link of the "LM diagram" was interesting... but without Weights or measurements.  There should be a master diagram that shows measurements.
Please take note: this, this parroted garbage claim is yours, not mine. You are the one who thinks it all so significant. It isn't. Virtually everything was subcontracted out by NASA.

There was a really excellent summary of the issue made by JayUtah a short while back on this forum.
https://apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=1893.msg56499#msg56499
https://apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=1563.msg48922#msg48922


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Then there needs to a "Weight & Balance" worksheet (or the equivalent) for the LM.  This is something all aviators know about and is even more vital to LM/AM which undergoes high fidelity rotations about the center of mass.
And what exactly do you think you are going to then do with these?

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The drawings shown here may "look substantial" to an most people, but this barely scratches the surface:
Is this guy really patronising "most people" on this forum? The drawings are plenty for most HBs who wouldn't have a clue about any of it. I am fairly close to concluding that you belong in that group.

The Grumman original drawings get passed around auction houses, so you go and get your cheque-book out if it means that much to you.

Offline bknight

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2024, 03:39:55 PM »
najak Why would an agency store/keep records on a program thatis defunct and has no more funding, no life, no prospects, no launches?
It's part of "Man's Greatest Achievement" - so saving just a few stacks of boxes is cheap.   Or give it to a museum.

The documents I'm seeing so far are still very lacking.  I'd like to see something with actual "meat on the bones" from the TOP LEVEL of the LM.

1. Full architectural 3D layout, with measurements/angles.
2. Simplified "Weight & Balance + Inertia" worksheet that is VITAL (would show HULL, humans, equipment, water, oxygen, fuel, oxidizer tanks) -- both with and without the Lander base attached.

This way you can calculate, as it lands or ascends, the Torque/time required by the RCS thrusters to adjust the module's attitude (yaw/pitch/roll).

I suspect it is way more than a few stacks of boxes, so no they were stored no reason for anyone to use them on a project that has been cancelled.
I doubt that you are able to calculate the RCS thrusters attitude control system.  But I will tell you to maybe contact Bill Tindall, who was in charge of the programs of the LM guidance, if he is still alive.  Here is a link to some of his work during Apollo.
https://www.nasa.gov/history/alsj/alsj-Tindallgrams.html
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline bknight

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2024, 03:50:18 PM »
najak Why would an agency store/keep records on a program thatis defunct and has no more funding, no life, no prospects, no launches?
It's part of "Man's Greatest Achievement" - so saving just a few stacks of boxes is cheap.   Or give it to a museum.

The documents I'm seeing so far are still very lacking.  I'd like to see something with actual "meat on the bones" from the TOP LEVEL of the LM.

1. Full architectural 3D layout, with measurements/angles.
2. Simplified "Weight & Balance + Inertia" worksheet that is VITAL (would show HULL, humans, equipment, water, oxygen, fuel, oxidizer tanks) -- both with and without the Lander base attached.

This way you can calculate, as it lands or ascends, the Torque/time required by the RCS thrusters to adjust the module's attitude (yaw/pitch/roll).
It occurrs to me that you suffer from "If I ran the zoo" fallacy.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2024, 05:43:55 PM »
#1: You're welcome. Quite why you couldn't do this yourself is the question.
#2: [Weight & Balance + Inertia] And what exactly do you think you are going to then do with these?
#3: The Grumman original drawings get passed around auction houses, so you go and get your cheque-book out if it means that much to you.
#1: The claim that "LM design/test/etc docs were mostly discarded" is the MLH long-standing claim.   If this can be refuted, the Apollogists surely know how to refute.  If I stayed in an Echo Chamber, no one would correct this claim -- MLH advocates, just like the Apollogists, by default tend to "accept most things that agree with MLH" due to confirmation bias.   So I come here for the "refutation".

#2: W&B&I - are CRUCIAL.  Essential for the calculations for Rotational acceleration conducted by the RCS thrusters.   What we need to know could be SUMMARIZED on a piece of paper...  Without this analysis, they have NO IDEA how to control attitude of the LM/AM using the AGC or manual controls, etc...  none.  So this would have had to have been a document and information used by those programming the Attitude control system.
Where is it?

#3: We don't need Originals.  We just want copies.

It seems to me that the MLH claim is essentially TRUE -- they discarded CRITICAL DESIGN documents that contain the top level crucial results/specs.

I would LOVE to be proven wrong here.  I would LOVE to see the detailed blueprints with measurements, as well as the Weight/balance/Inertial results.







Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2024, 05:53:01 PM »
I suspect it is way more than a few stacks of boxes, so no they were stored no reason for anyone to use them on a project that has been cancelled.
I doubt that you are able to calculate the RCS thrusters attitude control system.  But I will tell you to maybe contact Bill Tindall, who was in charge of the programs of the LM guidance, if he is still alive.  Here is a link to some of his work during Apollo.
https://www.nasa.gov/history/alsj/alsj-Tindallgrams.html
I'm just looking for the top-level design documents for now.  This should fit into a few thick binders... one big box at most.

THANK YOU FOR THE LINK AND SUGGESTION -- I GRABBED A FEW OF THESE THAT MENTION THE LM...  to see if anything pans out.

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2024, 05:59:00 PM »
It occurrs to me that you suffer from "If I ran the zoo" fallacy.
Only to the extent of saying things like this.   "If I ran the zoo, I would..."
1. Not put the predators and prey together.
2. I would feed the animals regularly.
3. I would keep them caged to prevent people from being hurt.

Just the obvious stuff -- like when you spend Billions to design an LM to do the IMPOSSIBLE -- super complex!... Lots of time/money invested.  Then just "throw away your R&D as though it's not worth a few boxes for storage of the most vital design docs?"   

No other technology has EVER DONE THIS...  Only Apollo - and Apollogists don't bat an eye.

Every other zoo keeper EVER, wouldn't have discarded the materials that explain "how it all worked", "how it was built", "how it was tested/verified".

And a museum, would have gladly taken this off their hands.  Or NASA.   Except -- it was "evidence AGAINST them" - so they did what has otherwise NEVER been done before - destroy it.