Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked

[onebigmonkey]

....

What do you think happened to the 500-page Baron report?  Why did it go missing, when he submitted it publicly to Congress just 6 days prior, which contained the names of more witnesses to corroborate the specifics contained in this report?

Does nothing smell fishy to you?

Why do you think it was 500 pages? What did the report contain? Were his reports considered?

[onebigmonkey]

Is there something factually wrong with this "Russian hoax/prank" -- did this really happen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClpbzHiY1DA

They tested their comms to a Zond probe. It's often interpreted as a deliberate attempt to fool people. People weren't fooled.

[najak]

Why do you think it was 500 pages? What did the report contain? Were his reports considered?

It's clear from his congressional testimony, found here:
https://www.nasa.gov/history/Apollo204/baron.htm

Quote from this testimony
===

Mr. BARON. I have sent to the chairman of this committee a more through report which includes all the names.

Mr. FULTON. I have all the names, but I read them and said to myself, who should we call?

Mr. BARON. No, sir. You are talking about the 55-page report. I am talking about the 500-page report.

Mr. TEAGUE. Your report went to the chairman of the full committee, not to me. He told me he received it.

Mr. BARON. I have a 500-page report. I have an opening statement which I wanted to read, which described this 500-page report, and in this

I think you can get all the possible names that there are, the times, the dates, the tests that were being run and the internal letters of the company, proper specifications, especially in regard to flamability of materials. All this is in this new report.

Thomas Baron is a hero.

Dead w/family 6-days later, by 1-car-train, late at night with no witnesses.   500-page report missing, and never mentioned again...  NASA responded to this incident by increasing the rate of development about 50% by cutting more corners, and eliminating multiple previously planned test flights.   Yeah, that makes sense.

This doesn't smell fishy to you at all?

[najak]

They tested their comms to a Zond probe. It's often interpreted as a deliberate attempt to fool people. People weren't fooled.

What about these communications "gave it away"?   

Are you saying that it wasn't believed at all, by anyone?  They were just pretending to be flustered?

[najak]

So why link to the article and use it to prop up your claim if you are unable to verify the veracity of it?

Because it looks accurate/neutral/factual so I present it.  If it's wrong, then it gets challenged, and we reassess.  Do you want to challenge it?  I will accept your challenges if you have them.  If I were to stake my claim ahead, "I KNOW THIS ARTICLE IS FACTUAL" - that would be quite dumb of me.  So I don't.  This is how honest debates go - sometimes you think a claim/source is credible, but later find out it is not.

[najak]

Reference article here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435122001787

Things aren't binary.

Correct.  But this one looks pretty CLEAR.

It drastically undermines the emphasis Apollogist argument that "We couldn't have faked Moon Rocks!"

In fact - this Chinese evidence makes it look pretty obvious that "We DID fake moon rocks, and we did it wrongly."

The Moon Rock argument has now become a fairly strong MLH claim.   This graph shows it.

[onebigmonkey]

Why do you think it was 500 pages? What did the report contain? Were his reports considered?

It's clear from his congressional testimony, found here:
https://www.nasa.gov/history/Apollo204/baron.htm

Quote from this testimony
===

Mr. BARON. I have sent to the chairman of this committee a more through report which includes all the names.

Mr. FULTON. I have all the names, but I read them and said to myself, who should we call?

Mr. BARON. No, sir. You are talking about the 55-page report. I am talking about the 500-page report.

Mr. TEAGUE. Your report went to the chairman of the full committee, not to me. He told me he received it.

Mr. BARON. I have a 500-page report. I have an opening statement which I wanted to read, which described this 500-page report, and in this

I think you can get all the possible names that there are, the times, the dates, the tests that were being run and the internal letters of the company, proper specifications, especially in regard to flamability of materials. All this is in this new report.

Thomas Baron is a hero.

Dead w/family 6-days later, by 1-car-train, late at night with no witnesses.   500-page report missing, and never mentioned again...  NASA responded to this incident by increasing the rate of development about 50% by cutting more corners, and eliminating multiple previously planned test flights.   Yeah, that makes sense.

This doesn't smell fishy to you at all?

So your evidence that a man was murdered to suppress his reports of failings at North American Aviation is his public (and still freely svailable) testimony before a Gouse Committee? You not seeing the contradiction here?

[onebigmonkey]

They tested their comms to a Zond probe. It's often interpreted as a deliberate attempt to fool people. People weren't fooled.

What about these communications "gave it away"?   

Are you saying that it wasn't believed at all, by anyone?  They were just pretending to be flustered?

What evidence do you have that anyone was flustered?

[onebigmonkey]

Reference article here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435122001787

Things aren't binary.

Correct.  But this one looks pretty CLEAR.

It drastically undermines the emphasis Apollogist argument that "We couldn't have faked Moon Rocks!"

No it doesn't.

In fact - this Chinese evidence makes it look pretty obvious that "We DID fake moon rocks, and we did it wrongly."

No it doesn't.

The Moon Rock argument has now become a fairly strong MLH claim.   This graph shows it.

No it doesn't. It merely shows that Apollo samples differ from those collected in a completely different location.

The fact is that Apollo samples are still used by China (and others) to ground truth their data
 Find us one report from China anywhere that doubts the veracity of the Apollo samples, or indeed any other Apollo data.

[najak]

So your evidence that a man was murdered to suppress his reports of failings at North American Aviation is his public (and still freely svailable) testimony before a Gouse Committee? You not seeing the contradiction here?

One would think this should be obvious to people -- but the higher ups simply know society.   Most people don't even know of Baron.  And most of those that do, simply don't connect the dots.  The overriding dynamic here is Apollo was the religion of World Peace and Unity - and a wonderful achievement -- we needed that Win.  So, Baron's death must have been just an accident.

Baron's investigation was about to turn into "more witnesses" to corroborate.  This was a huge setback for NASA on account of one man.  They didn't have much choice.

Similarly -- Epstein's "suicide" was VERY OBVIOUS -- yet they did it anyways.

[najak]

What evidence do you have that anyone was flustered?

That's how the story was TOLD by an APOLLOGIST.  Watch the clip -- he doesn't suspect we didn't Land on the Moon.  So he's not motivated to Lie for MLH.

It just so happens that this occurrence provides a feasible refute for some Apollogist claims that "it couldn't have been faked because we heard comms from the moon."

[najak]

It merely shows that Apollo samples differ from those collected in a completely different location.

Your own Apollogist expert, Korotev, says this:
"We have no reason to suspect, based on data obtained from orbit that any region of the moon is rich in types of rocks significantly different from those we that know about or postulate might exist. [...] It is highly unlikely that any yet-unfound lunar meteorite will differ substantially from the Apollo lunar rocks and known lunar meteorites in the minerals it contains or in its geochemical character."

ALSO:  Chinese Regolith particle average weight is 1/4th that of the Apollo regolith.  (5/8ths diameter--- cubed).

China and USA are interdependent for trade and economy.   It shouldn't surprise you that China isn't dumb enough to do something that may have backlash to themselves.

Or if China does know this "dirt" - is it better to "leverage your dirt?" (get something from it) - or to expose it, lose your leverage and cause damage likely to cut both ways??  NASA wants you to believe as you do -- so keep on believing.

[Zakalwe]

So why link to the article and use it to prop up your claim if you are unable to verify the veracity of it?

Because it looks accurate/neutral/factual so I present it.  If it's wrong, then it gets challenged, and we reassess.  Do you want to challenge it?  I will accept your challenges if you have them.  If I were to stake my claim ahead, "I KNOW THIS ARTICLE IS FACTUAL" - that would be quite dumb of me.  So I don't.  This is how honest debates go - sometimes you think a claim/source is credible, but later find out it is not.

Weasel words.
You cherry-picked the little bits that appeals to your fallacious narrative but conveniently ignored the bita where the author said that the landings were not on doubt or questioned.
Why is that?

[onebigmonkey]

So your evidence that a man was murdered to suppress his reports of failings at North American Aviation is his public (and still freely svailable) testimony before a Gouse Committee? You not seeing the contradiction here?

One would think this should be obvious to people -- but the higher ups simply know society.   Most people don't even know of Baron.  And most of those that do, simply don't connect the dots.  The overriding dynamic here is Apollo was the religion of World Peace and Unity - and a wonderful achievement -- we needed that Win.  So, Baron's death must have been just an accident.

Baron's investigation was about to turn into "more witnesses" to corroborate.  This was a huge setback for NASA on account of one man.  They didn't have much choice.

Similarly -- Epstein's "suicide" was VERY OBVIOUS -- yet they did it anyways.

The huge setback for NASA was three dead astronauts, not Baron's very public account of NAA's failings.

[onebigmonkey]

What evidence do you have that anyone was flustered?

That's how the story was TOLD by an APOLLOGIST.  Watch the clip -- he doesn't suspect we didn't Land on the Moon.  So he's not motivated to Lie for MLH.

It just so happens that this occurrence provides a feasible refute for some Apollogist claims that "it couldn't have been faked because we heard comms from the moon."

Yes, you posted this already. It was never reported as being "OMG, there are cosmonauts in lunar orbit.". The only  fluster was that they had carried out a lunar orbit ans return in a potentially human rated craft containing live cargo. It doesn't provide a feasible refutation at all - the voices they heard were clearly from a craft in lunar orbit, not transmitted from Earth.