Author Topic: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked  (Read 55646 times)

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #630 on: January 07, 2025, 08:14:59 AM »
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And see the AGC+IMU+DAC ability to auto-pilot a complex aircraft completely disappear (a very marketable tech for the military esp).

Hang on, do you think the computer plus inertial measurement unit system on Apollo was brand new technology? The basic concept had been used before Apollo. The innovations for Apollo were primarily in miniaturisation to make it as small and light as possible, and the programming of a very specific set of requirements that are not transferrable to an aircraft. As for the technology 'disappearing', do you expect them to just take the AGC as it was and stick it in another craft?

The technology hasn't 'disappeared', it's been in a state of continual application and development from a time well before it was used in Apollo. Unsurprisingly, it's not called the Apollo guidance computer any more.
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #631 on: January 07, 2025, 09:34:26 AM »
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And see the AGC+IMU+DAC ability to auto-pilot a complex aircraft completely disappear (a very marketable tech for the military esp).

Hang on, do you think the computer plus inertial measurement unit system on Apollo was brand new technology? The basic concept had been used before Apollo. The innovations for Apollo were primarily in miniaturisation to make it as small and light as possible, and the programming of a very specific set of requirements that are not transferrable to an aircraft. As for the technology 'disappearing', do you expect them to just take the AGC as it was and stick it in another craft?

The technology hasn't 'disappeared', it's been in a state of continual application and development from a time well before it was used in Apollo. Unsurprisingly, it's not called the Apollo guidance computer any more.

It's almost like they had someone on the staff who could target rockets...

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #632 on: January 07, 2025, 10:15:02 AM »
The technology hasn't 'disappeared', it's been in a state of continual application and development from a time well before it was used in Apollo. Unsurprisingly, it's not called the Apollo guidance computer any more.
"Disappeared" is a bit of hyperbole on my part... but effectively true.  They went from being confident enough to having the AGC+IMU+DAC auto-pilot the LM, including the maintaining of balance (via a 2-second update cycle, AFAIK) for a top-heavy LM -- to doing MUCH MUCH LESS...  as MLH would suspect.   The X-14 plane, cancelled in 1981, still couldn't do much, even 10 years later, and this is after decades of prototyping and live testing.

For the LM, they didn't even bother to create a POC (Proof of Concept) to show this trio in action -- that it was capable of balancing even an EASIER craft to fly, such as the LLTV (it was not top heavy)... but nope, no POC.    And this tech went WAY BACKWARDS afterwards  (so this "advancement in tech" disappeared).

The absence of a POC for this trio, prior to doing the singular "on mission field test with A10" - is one of the things that breaks all "bleeding edge product development" logic.  Why skip this POC step, unless you couldn't actually do it?  Why would this tech advancement "disappear" afterwards, unless you actually didn't do what you said you did?  Why did NG throw out most of the docs for the LM? (unless they didn't want people digging it up later to see that the appropriate amount of work/test/validation/design wasn't actually workable).    Why get rid of all Telemetry tapes, unless you are hiding the fact that this data may not have existed, or that the data on these tapes didn't fully make sense, etc.

Why are the Regolith samples now suddenly shrunk to 1/11th their original volumes? (without a viable scientific explanation)  Why did the Astronauts claim moon dust was like soft "graphite powder" sticky, but easy to wipe off, and no serious problem when it got in your eyes? (when today NASA acknowledges that this dust is very sharp/spiky, and would EMBED into the skin and eyes - especially if wiped/rubbed as they did)

These are SOME of the things that make me smell fish... which I'd like to discuss more in depth.  Each topic deserving a new thread.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #633 on: January 07, 2025, 10:16:14 AM »
Hang on, do you think the computer plus inertial measurement unit system on Apollo was brand new technology? The basic concept had been used before Apollo.
Indeed, Eldon Hall's book goes into some depth about the specific missile guidance systems that his team relied upon to develop the computer. The AGC built solidly on existing principles. At the museum where I volunteer we have on display a number of pre-Apollo missile guidance systems and inertial measurement equipment. We also have some post-Apollo systems.

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The innovations for Apollo were primarily in miniaturisation to make it as small and light as possible, and the programming of a very specific set of requirements that are not transferrable to an aircraft. As for the technology 'disappearing', do you expect them to just take the AGC as it was and stick it in another craft?
NASA did exactly that. They reprogrammed the AGC to work as a fly-by-wire system for a military jet. While the AGC itself was a special-purpose package, the hardware, software, and construction techniques very much lived on in subsequent designs.

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The technology hasn't 'disappeared', it's been in a state of continual application and development from a time well before it was used in Apollo. Unsurprisingly, it's not called the Apollo guidance computer any more.
Correct. The design requirements for new spacecraft, aircraft, and delivery vehicles usually mean that the hardware has to be made to fit each new case, but the principles existed long before Apollo (as evidenced in MIT's paper designs) and long after in such things as the AP-101 used in the space shuttle orbiter.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #634 on: January 07, 2025, 10:23:42 AM »
"Disappeared" is a bit of hyperbole on my part... but effectively true.
No, it's just ignorant and wrong.

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...for a top-heavy LM
Asked and answered. That you believe the LM is "top-heavy" and therefore uncontrollable is a fundamental misunderstanding of the attitude control problem.

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The X-14 plane, cancelled in 1981, still couldn't do much, even 10 years later, and this is after decades of prototyping and live testing.
The goal of that program was not to adapt the AGC.

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For the LM, they didn't even bother to create a POC (Proof of Concept) to show this trio in action -- that it was capable of balancing even an EASIER craft to fly, such as the LLTV...
Asked and answered. The LLTV was not a lunar module prototype and there was nothing to be gained by teaching the AGC to fly the LLTV. LM-1 was tested in orbit and provided the assurance that the AGC's paper solution would work in flight for the combined LM. If you want to say that orbital testing is not the same as testing in gravity, then we can be absolutely sure you're not equipped to understand how stability control works.

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The absence of a POC for this trio, prior to doing the singular "on mission field test with A10" - is one of the things that breaks all "bleeding edge product development" logic.
No, it's simply your attempt to paste your lay understanding and expectations over the problem.

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These are SOME of the things that make me smell fish... which I'd like to discuss more in depth.  Each topic deserving a new thread.
Stop trying to make the Gish gallop happen.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #635 on: January 07, 2025, 10:40:47 AM »
"Disappeared" is a bit of hyperbole on my part... but effectively true.

No, entirely wrong.

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They went from being confident enough to having the AGC+IMU+DAC auto-pilot the LM, including the maintaining of balance (via a 2-second update cycle, AFAIK) for a top-heavy LM

You keep on calling the LM top-heavy when it is one of the least top heavy items in the entire Apollo system. Yes, the centre of mass was above the centre of thrust, but that is true for literally ALL rocket systems.

Here's a fun thing for you to consider: Robert Goddard's early liquid fuelled rockets were based on the belief that a top heavy rocket would be difficult to control, so the rocket motor was at the top of a metal frame assembly with the fuel tanks below, putting the centre of mass well below the centre of thrust. And then some experiments proved that a rocket works just as well with the engines right at the bottom. And this was literally a hundred years ago. Your concept of 'balancing' a rocket on its thrust has been known to be wrong for a century at least.

And I gather you believe a '2-second update cycle' in some way means it takes 2 seconds to respond to an input? Otherwise what has this to do with anything?

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For the LM, they didn't even bother to create a POC (Proof of Concept) to show this trio in action

LM-1 was the concept. It flew on Apollo 5, uncrewed, and it worked. Can you think of a better way to prove the system works than putting it in the actual spacecraft it is designed to operate and flying it in the environment it is supposed to operate in?

And that 'designed to operate' part is significant. You can't just chuck the same computer with the same software in a completely different vehicle and expect it to perform. And after 20 years of dealing with people making such claims as yours I feel pretty confident in saying if they had done as you suggested, hoax believers would call it an invalid test because it's not flying the same vehicle in space as they said it could.

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The absence of a POC for this trio, prior to doing the singular "on mission field test with A10"

Nope, not even close. The LM was flown, with the AGC, on Apollo 5, 9 and 10, and Apollo 11 WAS the final test. The issue is not an absence of POC, it's an absence of what you think POC should involve, which carries no weight whatsoever.

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Why did NG throw out most of the docs for the LM? (unless they didn't want people digging it up later to see that the appropriate amount of work/test/validation/design wasn't actually workable).

Because, as with many companies, they were not making it any more, and the vast majority of those documents are very specific construction plans that they don't need any more and can't justify the storage space for decades later when they have active projects with a higher call on the available resource. There is still a huge amount of published documentation about the LM and every other aspect of Apollo.

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Why get rid of all Telemetry tapes, unless you are hiding the fact that this data may not have existed, or that the data on these tapes didn't fully make sense, etc.

Or that it's just of no use any more, and in any case the particular data format requires machinery that isn't made any more to read it. Why did I chuck out my entire VHS collection when my last VHS player broke and I can't get a new one any more?

Once again, the problem here is squarely your inability to conceive that people and organisations don't have to work the way you think they should, that your ideas are not always right, that your experience in no way makes you an expert in Apollo or space flight of any kind.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #636 on: January 07, 2025, 11:01:50 AM »

For the LM, they didn't even bother to create a POC (Proof of Concept) to show this trio in action -- that it was capable of balancing even an EASIER craft to fly, such as the LLTV (it was not top heavy)... but nope, no POC.    And this tech went WAY BACKWARDS afterwards  (so this "advancement in tech" disappeared).

The absence of a POC for this trio, prior to doing the singular "on mission field test with A10" - is one of the things that breaks all "bleeding edge product development" logic.  Why skip this POC step, unless you couldn't actually do it?  Why would this tech advancement "disappear" afterwards, unless you actually didn't do what you said you did?  Why did NG throw out most of the docs for the LM? (unless they didn't want people digging it up later to see that the appropriate amount of work/test/validation/design wasn't actually workable).    Why get rid of all Telemetry tapes, unless you are hiding the fact that this data may not have existed, or that the data on these tapes didn't fully make sense, etc.


Again, you are guilty of ignoring the prior responses to this.


Magically, NASA didn't need ANY system testing for anything close to real-world conditions.

LLTV would have been an OPTIMUM vehicle for a Proof-of-Concept (POC).   NASA didn't even complete a Proof-of-Concept for this LM being navigated/balanced by an AGC.

If NASA could have successfully pulled off this POC, they would have proudly touted it -- MAGIC - a computer flying a precarious aircraft!...   No such POC was even shown or even documented.

This is how bleeding edge complex product development ALWAYS works, for ALL fields of development.   You don't skip "System Testing in approximated real-world environments", unless you aren't really going to do it.

Utter nonsense. It's no wonder that Jay is having to take it slowly, as you really are a slow learner.
What do you think A7, 8, 9 and 10 were for?
Have you heard of the Gemini program? If not, then you'll be amazed that it was a test program for Apollo, to test all of the core needs for a Lunar program: orbital mechanics and navigation, rendezvous and docking, EVA, extended stay missions and global Comms.

I am really, really, REALLY bored of watching you trash about trying to wriggle away from or just blatantly ignoring the responses to your threads. I can't imagine how much more of this shenanigans that LunarOrbit will put up with. A 14 day ban has not changed your approach one jot. It's actually very tedious now.

I can forsee this featuring in your short-term future.



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Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #637 on: January 07, 2025, 11:05:43 AM »
You keep on calling the LM top-heavy when it is one of the least top heavy items in the entire Apollo system. Yes, the centre of mass was above the centre of thrust, but that is true for literally ALL rocket systems.
To land this LM, it had to maintain balance from 3000 mph 90 deg horizontal to 0 mph upright.  None of our other rockets "landed", until modern day, like Starships.

So taking it to 45 mph with a tilt is what AGC+IMU+DAC needed to do, for a craft that was top-heavy.  Why not build ANY POC here to test out this trio to conduct "movement, tilt, balance, landing" maneuvers.    Armstrong "took over" the landing -- meaning the AGC was supposed to also do the landing as well?

To show such POCs in the 1960's would have been astounding.  But we never got to see it, did we?  And afterwards, in the 1970's -- this would have been incredible tech to showcase.

Airplanes are much easier to fly - and practically fly themselves, and only need guidance (e.g. paper airplanes, foam airplane, and remote control airplanes came out long before the drone-looking ones).   But for the top-heavy LM, it requires continual "balancing" like on a Pogo-stick.... else it falls over.

No POC for bleeding-edge tech, entrusting the lives of men to this unproven tech for first-time-ever maneuvers of this trio.   I smell fish.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #638 on: January 07, 2025, 11:08:31 AM »

Airplanes are much easier to fly - and practically fly themselves, and only need guidance (e.g. paper airplanes, foam airplane, and remote control airplanes came out long before the drone-looking ones). 

Lets add flying and aeronautics to the long list of things that you know nothing about. Let me guess....you have zero hours as a Pilot In Command?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2025, 11:11:32 AM by Zakalwe »
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #639 on: January 07, 2025, 11:15:13 AM »
...for a craft that was top-heavy.
Please provide the mass moment diagram that proves this claim.

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Why not build ANY POC here to test out this trio to conduct "movement, tilt, balance, landing" maneuvers.
Because it is unnecessary to do so in order to test the computer's ability to maintain attitudinal control.

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And afterwards, in the 1970's -- this would have been incredible tech to showcase.
According to you.

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Airplanes are much easier to fly - and practically fly themselves, and only need guidance (e.g. paper airplanes, foam airplane, and remote control airplanes came out long before the drone-looking ones).
Are you a pilot? What aircraft types are you qualified to fly?

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But for the top-heavy LM, it requires continual "balancing" like on a Pogo-stick.... else it falls over.
No.

You already tipped your hand by invoking the classically wrong image of balancing a broom handle. And in a different thread you used the phrase "inertia moment," rather than the ubiquitously correct "moment of inertia." Had you been taught these concepts before, or had practiced them, you would have been quickly disabused of common lay misperceptions and you would have adopted the correct terminology as second nature. You do not get to enjoy the presumption that you know what you're talking about.

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No POC for bleeding-edge tech, entrusting the lives of men to this unproven tech for first-time-ever maneuvers of this trio.
No one cares that you disagree with the Apollo development program. Those who do this for a living don't, and with good reasons.

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I smell fish.
Check your own breath.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #640 on: January 07, 2025, 11:17:13 AM »
Lets add flying and aeronautics to the long list of things that you know nothing about. Let me guess....you have zero hours as a Pilot In Command?
I've been developing aviation software for pilots near full-time for over 10 years.  I've also seen no-tech paper airplanes fly, have you?

But the 4+ propeller style drones we see today are new-tech, post-2000... much harder to balance, and they are NOT top-heavy; like the LLTV, they are bottom-heavy (slightly).

The tech to balance-while-maneuvering the LM in real-life didn't get developed for years -- because it's much harder.   It would have been astounding to see this tech roll out in the 1970's...

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #641 on: January 07, 2025, 11:29:28 AM »
I've been developing aviation software for pilots near full-time for over 10 years.
Are you a pilot? What are your type qualifications? What specifically does your "aviation software" do? Is it embedded in the aircraft? Is it controlling actual aircraft?

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I've also seen no-tech paper airplanes fly, have you?
Uncontrolled winged aircraft rely on well-known principles of passive aerodynamic stability. While those principles are not directly related to spacecraft, the concept of passive stability is. You are being asked to incorporate congruent principles of passive stability into your criticism of the LM control problem. You seem unwilling or unable to do so.

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It would have been astounding to see this tech roll out in the 1970's...
According to you.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2025, 11:34:03 AM by JayUtah »
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Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #642 on: January 07, 2025, 11:39:32 AM »
...for a craft that was top-heavy.
Please provide the mass moment diagram that proves this claim.
See attached diagram, with lines and labels 1-4:
1. AM COM, +5', 5,000 lbs
2. AM Fuel COM, +3', 5,000 lbs
3. Center of Thrust, 0' - origin  (1' below the top of Lander, combination of pressures exerted at top of chamber + along the nozzle)
4. LandingBase COM, -2', 8,000 lbs

5x5000 + 3x5000 - 2x8000 == 25000 + 15000 - 16000 = 24,000 / 10 = 2.4'  (COM above COT)

Result: Combined COM for the LM on landing was at least 2.4' ABOVE the center of Thrust.

I used estimates for COT that were generous towards Apollo.  The COT is likely considerably lower, due to the distribution of the thrust force exerted along the interior of the nozzle surface.  I generously put the COT at only 1' below the top of the lander... to show that even with this generous estimate, it's STILL top-heavy...   unlike the LLTV.

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #643 on: January 07, 2025, 11:43:18 AM »
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I've also seen no-tech paper airplanes fly, have you?
Uncontrolled winged aircraft rely on well-known principles of passive aerodynamic stability. While those principles are not directly related to spacecraft, the concept of passive stability is. You are being asked to incorporate congruent principles of passive stability into your criticism of the LM control problem. You seem unwilling or unable to do so.
This is a bigger topic.  If you aren't scared of a new thread to discuss it, rather than page-42 of a pot-luck/generic thread -- let's delve into this more.

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It would have been astounding to see this tech roll out in the 1970's...
According to you.
But NOT TO YOU??  Really....

Offline Mag40

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #644 on: January 07, 2025, 11:59:47 AM »
This is a bigger topic.  If you aren't scared of a new thread to discuss it, rather than page-42 of a pot-luck/generic thread -- let's delve into this more.
I'm not sure you'll have much time, given the same posturing, weaselling posts, the same constant evasion of points made to you and ignored by you. I suggest right now that you start showing a little more closer to the "100% integrity", because I'm positive every person here is seeing you hopelessly far off it.

Watching you type these useless claims towards people who have forgotten more than you know, is just tedious.