Is it time to admit defeat?

[LunarOrbit]

Has stupidity won?

People used to say to me "Who cares if they believe the Moon landings were faked? They aren't hurting anyone." But this is where it has led us to... a world where facts don't matter, where history books and photographic proof are not trusted, where experts are ignored, where the Earth is flat, and Donald Trump is President again... but this time without guardrails.

I'm losing hope for the future. We don't have time for a US President who doesn't believe in climate change. I have tremendous concern for the people of Ukraine, and the rest of Europe. I'm scared for the immigrants in the US who will be rounded up and deported (or worse).

We did not learn from history. We are stupid. We are doomed.

I'm sorry for being a downer. I just don't see a silver lining today.

Does anyone want to take over this website? I think I'm getting out of the "defending the United States" business (...no, it's not really a business). Serious offers only... I'm not going to give it to a hoax believer, and I'm not going to shut it down if no one steps up, I'm just not in the mindset to argue over the Moon landings anymore. There are bigger concerns.

[grmcdorman]

He also has promised to give the health care system to someone (RFK Jr) who does not believe in the established medical knowledge - most recently public statemants against vaccines and floridation - and control of Goverment jobs to Musk, who is a wrecking ball with no guard rails.

I am depressed as well. I'm not in the US, but I am in Canada, which is going to have to endure whatever happens to the US.

[LunarOrbit]

He also has promised to give the health care system to someone (RFK Jr) who does not believe in the established medical knowledge - most recently public statemants against vaccines and floridation - and control of Goverment jobs to Musk, who is a wrecking ball with no guard rails.

Yeah, even if he only does 10% of the things I'm worried about it will be disastrous. But I think that's the point. He was brought in to destroy the country, not to "make it great".

I am in Canada

Me too. We have our own Trump wannabe vying to be our next Prime Minister. I guess if there is a silver lining it's that Canadians might wake up when they see the mess Trump is making and not want to go down that same path. It's not looking good, though.

[Peter B]

My view is that it's two years to the mid-terms, and that means there's two years to plan and act on turning things around.

That means this website is more important than ever. So I'd encourage you to keep operating the site.

Personally, I've been tossing around the idea of starting a blog to discuss a range of issues from a skeptical point of view. Over the last day I've swung more strongly towards the idea of doing it.

[LunarOrbit]

My view is that it's two years to the mid-terms, and that means there's two years to plan and act on turning things around.

To be honest, I'm not really hopeful that there will be elections again... at least not legitimate ones.

That means this website is more important than ever. So I'd encourage you to keep operating the site.

I won't shut it down as long as people are still using it.

Personally, I've been tossing around the idea of starting a blog to discuss a range of issues from a skeptical point of view. Over the last day I've swung more strongly towards the idea of doing it.

You absolutely should. I used to blog before Facebook/Twitter came along and "killed" blogs... but I they're making a comeback. They're good for organizing your thoughts.

[JayUtah]

I am depressed as well. I'm not in the US, but I am in Canada, which is going to have to endure whatever happens to the US.

Sorry, guys. It must be like living in the apartment upstairs from a meth lab.

I won't shut it down as long as people are still using it.

I'm not going anywhere.

[LunarOrbit]

Sorry, guys. It must be like living in the apartment upstairs from a meth lab.

A little bit...

Now many of my fellow Canadians are saying "We should be a meth lab too!"

I'm not going anywhere.

I'm glad to hear that, Jay. It wouldn't be the same without you.

[bknight]

LO, I'm not leaving either.  This site has been the best resource for Apollo, and I have learned a bunch of information concerning my favorite space operations.

[LunarOrbit]

LO, I'm not leaving either.  This site has been the best resource for Apollo, and I have learned a bunch of information concerning my favorite space operations.

Thanks, BK.

I do believe we are the best resource for anyone with questions about the Apollo hoax theory or the history of the space program in general. I guess I'm just feeling like we can't compete with the armies of disinformation peddlers that exist now. People are so brainwashed to distrust experts that nothing we tell them is getting through to them.

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that it's our fault or that it's up to us to save the world. We're just a small group of fire fighters with garden hoses in the middle of a raging global forest fire. But I wish I could believe that people will snap out of whatever spell they're under before it's too late.

[Peter B]

Personally, I've been tossing around the idea of starting a blog to discuss a range of issues from a skeptical point of view. Over the last day I've swung more strongly towards the idea of doing it.

You absolutely should. I used to blog before Facebook/Twitter came along and "killed" blogs... but I they're making a comeback. They're good for organizing your thoughts.

Thanks for the endorsement!

But I'd just like to mention the reasons I promote Ecosia and Lids4Kids in my sig block:

- I like Ecosia for the idea that people can make a change for the better simply by changing the search engine they use; and

- Lids4Kids is a grass-roots community organisation which provides (a) a simple process for both households and businesses to reduce the waste of small plastic products which are hard to recycle at the individual level but easily recycled in mass, and (b) an easily scalable process any community can set up and expand.

If we can't rely on governments to lead action against climate change, then it's going to have to be led by individuals and communities. Action is a good antidote for despair, and I'd like to think that at least some people who see these organisations mentioned will be motivated to change their behaviours and/or start similar organisations in their communities, and promote them to others.

[JayUtah]

I guess I'm just feeling like we can't compete with the armies of disinformation peddlers that exist now. People are so brainwashed to distrust experts that nothing we tell them is getting through to them.

We'll always be able to compete. Not always win, but there's intellectual and moral value to making the right answers available. I have several friends that I've known since they were in law school and who are now public defenders. They win very few cases—almost none. But they get better outcomes for their clients than those people would get on their own. It's still demoralizing to see fact and reason play smaller and smaller roles in society. But things still have value for being provably right.

I started clavius.org not with the ideal of making the conspiracy theories go away, but to simply provide the other side of the story. Having actual people say they changed their minds because of my effort is just icing on the cake.

[Zakalwe]

When the ship is sinking in a gale-force wind and when the seas are high we need more, not fewer, lifeboats. America has voted for insanity and the next decade is going to be very very rough for those who aren't white multi-millionaires.

This place is a lifeboat. Please don't sink it.

[LunarOrbit]

This place is a lifeboat. Please don't sink it.

I promise, I do not intend to shut down the website. I don't have the patience to debate the reality of the Moon landings with delusional people anymore, but I will continue to support anyone who still does. I just wondered it there was someone with more passion to defend Apollo who wanted to take charge of the website. I do care a lot about Apollo, so I will always defend it... I just don't have the energy that I used to, not with everything else going on.

If this website suddenly disappears it will be because the fascists that will be running the United States as of January 2025 see it as a threat to their agenda. We support the space program, which is a glorious aspect of American history that they won't try to rewrite (except to erase the women and people of colour who were critical to it's success). But we also defend the truth (in general) and promote critical thinking here, and I don't think they will like that too much. We're a small group, so we will probably fly under their radar... but who knows what the future holds now?

[onebigmonkey]

I don't think the battle has been won, it's just moved to new grounds. The forum doesn't get traffic from hoax proponents because they find it easier to produce memes and farm engagement on X or facebook echo chambers where there's no need to try and formulate logical and internally consistent discussion.

As a place to ask questions, and also to shine a spotlight on where the lunatics are hanging out now, this place still very much has a useful function.

[rocketman]

they find it easier to produce memes and farm engagement on X or facebook echo chambers where there's no need to try and formulate logical and internally consistent discussion.

I do indeed find there is no need to try and formulate logical and internally consistent discussion in social media outlets.

Unfortunately, that is also the case at every science-themed board I've ever visited, as soon as the topic strays outside the domain of the board.  I've even come across people who have argued explicitly that there is no need to know what you're talking about or reason logically in domains other than their own.  At this board, I've seen people argue explicitly that we should not point out mistakes, if they have been made by people arguing against hoax claims.  So much for "logical and internally consistent discussion".  This idea that we should compromise our intellectual integrity and become the hypocrites that the hoaxies sometimes claim we are, really put me off of this board.

On the plus side, I have cited (multiple times) one particular member of this board as a good example of someone who understands the principle, "STFU when you don't know what you are talking about" - a skill that is often sadly lacking, even among scientists and engineers.