Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast

[najak]

The last defense of the coward "They had to ban me on Apollohoax". As if this is somehow a badge of honour.

"Coward" - really?  Any logic behind that?  What am I cowering away from?

I could have gotten banned long ago, but I'd like to remain here.

I SIMPLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT MORE THINGS.  The old ones are weeks old, and well attended and defended.

So I'm being silenced on any new topics, where they can be discussed in a meaningful focused manner.

[Mag40]

I refer to this 2019 article.
Why would there be an abrupt "hardness?"  What hardened it all of a sudden at 2-3" deep?

Do you know?  I don't.

[najak]

I refer to this 2019 article.
Why would there be an abrupt "hardness?"  What hardened it all of a sudden at 2-3" deep?

Do you know?  I don't.

I'll rephrase this for you @Mag40...

I am unaware of any viable Apollogist hypothesis that would explain this "cementing" especially so close to the surface, and consistently.

This should be made into it's own thread -- so that Apollogists can step forward with some science to refute this claim.   As they still want to claim "All MLH theories have been debunked."

[onebigmonkey]

I refer to this 2019 article.
Why would there be an abrupt "hardness?"  What hardened it all of a sudden at 2-3" deep?

Do you know?  I don't.

I'll rephrase this for you @Mag40...

I am unaware of any viable Apollogist hypothesis that would explain this "cementing" especially so close to the surface, and consistently.

This should be made into it's own thread -- so that Apollogists can step forward with some science to refute this claim.   As they still want to claim "All MLH theories have been debunked."

Compaction and friction.

Go find yourself a fresh volcanic debris field and try ramming a flag pole in it. Let us know how you get on.

[Mag40]

Moved to other thread - off topic.

[najak]

#1: Compaction and friction.
#2: Go find yourself a fresh volcanic debris field and try ramming a flag pole in it. Let us know how you get on.

#1: source of friction?  Compaction is usually the result of weather/rain and biological processes/decay.  None of this happens on the moon.   Think Sahara desert -- deep sand.

#2: Volcanos stopped eruption over 1 Billion years ago -- and during this last Billion years, 1000 meters deep of new Dust settled on the moon... so all volcanic rocks/bed should be very very deep.

But for Apollo - the cemented layer started at 2-3" consistently... with few exceptions.

[Mag40]

I SIMPLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT MORE THINGS.  The old ones are weeks old, and well attended and defended.

Some denied with ridiculous reasons given. Others just denied due to your expectations not being met of how things happen in a vacuum / low gravity. Many just evaded.

So I'm being silenced on any new topics, where they can be discussed in a meaningful focused manner.

Go on, give us all a hint as to your next "new" topic.

[Mag40]

#1: source of friction?  Compaction is usually the result of weather/rain and biological processes/decay.  None of this happens on the moon.   Think Sahara desert -- deep sand.
#2: Volcanos stopped eruption over 1 Billion years ago -- and during this last Billion years, 1000 meters deep of new Dust settled on the moon... so all volcanic rocks/bed should be very very deep.

But for Apollo - the cemented layer started at 2-3" consistently... with few exceptions.

Really? Smooth Sahara sand? I gave you a link to a very long article. Maybe you should go away and read it, learn something. The regolith is very jagged particulate, subject to vast numbers of lunar quakes, gravity and weight of above material. It also becomes more settled as it very slightly expands/compacts from solar infra-red.

Here's one that explains some process:
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2005RG000184
"The relative density, which is quite low very near the surface, increases significantly just 10 cm below the surface to values exceeding the maximum relative densities achievable for terrestrial soils under normal construction conditions. These high values of DR indicate that the lunar regolith is generally highly compacted. Tidal fluctuations between the Earth and Moon due to the Moon's eccentric orbit result in regular and continuous low-intensity seismic activity, which in addition to impacts of meteoroids have resulted in continuous densification of the regolith both at shallow and great depths [Carrier et al., 1991]."

Believe it or not, people with decades of experience who understand this, know more than you!

[onebigmonkey]

#1: Compaction and friction.
#2: Go find yourself a fresh volcanic debris field and try ramming a flag pole in it. Let us know how you get on.

#1: source of friction?  Compaction is usually the result of weather/rain and biological processes/decay.  None of this happens on the moon.   Think Sahara desert -- deep sand.

Compaction from the mass of material above a given layer, friction between particles under that mass.

#2: Volcanos stopped eruption over 1 Billion years ago -- and during this last Billion years, 1000 meters deep of new Dust settled on the moon... so all volcanic rocks/bed should be very very deep.

Not on Earth they didn't. Fresh volcanic ash is a very good substitute.

But for Apollo - the cemented layer started at 2-3" consistently... with few exceptions.

Citation required. Try inserting a flagpole into volcanic ash. You do know ypu can drive heavy vehicles over Sahran sand metres deep, right?

[JayUtah]

Aerozine50 + N2O4 already has a known rating for expected combustion energy per kg.  If you know this answer - just answer it.   It'll take you 5 seconds, and I'll trust you.

I'm not going to do your homework.

You asked me two specific questions. I answered one and deferred the other for good reason. I gave you the answers you asked for, told you exactly in what way you were probably asking the wrong question, gave you the values you would need for the question you should have been asking, and hinted at your next steps. You've already received far more help than any other beginning student. And no, you've demonstrated you don't trust the answers I just hand you, so stop trying to tell everyone else what they must do.

[najak]

you've demonstrated you don't trust the answers I just hand you

You think if you tell me the heat of combustion for A50+N2O4 that I won't trust it?  Test it -- see if I believe you.

Typical experiments to measure heat of combustion use a calorimeter.   I'm not seeing any cases of just figuring out it theoretically, although I'm guessing you can.

I do not now how to figure this from the compound equations alone.  I looked at some molecular bond energies - but this didn't yield a reasonable result.  So I'm stuck.  The only resources I see online tell me to "burn some, and use a calorimeter"...  but I can't seem to find any A50 - I'm all out.

You've handed me almost NO ANSWERS -- but the (good) ones you've handed me, I've accepted.

You are stalling to get to the end of this road - because you know you cannot give a reasonable refute to these Launch acceleration behaviors for the full 1 second.

Saying you think I won't believe you when you simply tell us the A50 combustion energy - is ludicrous.  It's stalling, because the end of this road we're on, ends very badly for the Apollogy.

[najak]

#1: Compaction from the mass of material above a given layer, friction between particles under that mass.
#2: Volcanos:  Not on Earth they didn't. Fresh volcanic ash is a very good substitute.
#3: But for Apollo - the cemented layer started at 2-3" consistently... with few exceptions.

#1: Moon dust hardness level is close to quartz..  Doesn't cement together under a few inches of dust.
#2: Why you talking earth?  I'm saying there should be little-to-no volcanic rock on the surface of the moon -- 1 Billion years ago, these stopped on the moon.. then 1000 meters of dust fell on top of it.

#3: Apollo 11 - when Armstrong is scooping stuff up.  When he's pounding in the flag.  Many instance of scooping, taking samples.   Do some homework here.   Many examples of the "sudden hardness" happening a specific level (not just sporadic "oops I hit a rock").

8" was the deepest I've seen where they didn't hit some sudden resistance, but these cases were rare.   Even so - there should be no "sudden resistance" -- we don't have sedimentation layers or antyhing -- just vanilla Quartz-like small unconsolidated dust/particles -- finer than play sand.  Nothing to cement it.

[onebigmonkey]

#1: Compaction from the mass of material above a given layer, friction between particles under that mass.
#2: Volcanos:  Not on Earth they didn't. Fresh volcanic ash is a very good substitute.
#3: But for Apollo - the cemented layer started at 2-3" consistently... with few exceptions.

#1: Moon dust hardness level is close to quartz..  Doesn't cement together under a few inches of dust.

Citation required.

#2: Why you talking earth?  I'm saying there should be little-to-no volcanic rock on the surface of the moon -- 1 Billion years ago, these stopped on the moon.. then 1000 meters of dust fell on top of it.

I'm not sure which part of my explanation was difficult for you. Fresh volcanic ash on Earth is analogous to lunar regolith. Go find some and stick a flagpole in it. Let us know how you get on.

#3: Apollo 11 - when Armstrong is scooping stuff up.  When he's pounding in the flag.  Many instance of scooping, taking samples.   Do some homework here.   Many examples of the "sudden hardness" happening a specific level (not just sporadic "oops I hit a rock").

8" was the deepest I've seen where they didn't hit some sudden resistance, but these cases were rare.   Even so - there should be no "sudden resistance" -- we don't have sedimentation layers or antyhing -- just vanilla Quartz-like small unconsolidated dust/particles -- finer than play sand.  Nothing to cement it.

See my answer to #2.

[BertieSlack]

But for Apollo - the cemented layer started at 2-3" consistently... with few exceptions.

If you can't be bothered to read the paper "Principal scientific results of the Surveyor 3 mission" published in June 1968, let me cherry-pick a quote for you from the abstract:

"Soil strength and density increase significantly at depths of a few centimeters."

[onebigmonkey]

But for Apollo - the cemented layer started at 2-3" consistently... with few exceptions.

If you can't be bothered to read the paper "Principal scientific results of the Surveyor 3 mission" published in June 1968, let me cherry-pick a quote for you from the abstract:

"Soil strength and density increase significantly at depths of a few centimeters."

Which is pretty much what you'd expect from any soil profile: material at depth is compacted by material above it. His comparison with quartz shows he knows nothing about quartz.