Author Topic: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast  (Read 38848 times)

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #600 on: January 05, 2025, 01:25:41 PM »
Stop whining about being silenced and have the discussions you claim to want. People have responded to your points so deal with that instead of posting walls of text about how badly you’re being treated and suggesting were paid shills for NASA.
3 of the 4 topics have been brought to full closure.

Only the A12 Dish Flinging is still being discussed.

I have more threads to raise, which may have a good chance of also being non-debunkable... which either makes LO uneasy, or breaks a contract he has with NASA.  I can't figure out the reason for this insecurity associated with Apollo...   I even have the mandate to call you TD's (Truth Defenders)... how does this look to you?  Neutral, or biased?


Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #601 on: January 05, 2025, 01:33:25 PM »
I have more threads to raise, which may have a good chance of also being non-debunkable... which either makes LO uneasy, or breaks a contract he has with NASA.  I can't figure out the reason for this insecurity associated with Apollo...   I even have the mandate to call you TD's (Truth Defenders)... how does this look to you?  Neutral, or biased?

It looks like you being held to reasonable standards of discussion. You have had this explained over and over and over again. You keep on trying to throw more stuff at the wall before you have finished discussing the previous points. There is no insecurity, but as I have said, there is literally decades of experience of people doing exactly what you are doing and it is unbelievably tiresome.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #602 on: January 05, 2025, 01:54:34 PM »
I have two arguments outstanding that seem like GOOD arguments...  8 flag motions, and the Apollo 12 Dish flinging.   I have MORE -- but am being silenced by the biased management of this forum.

You've made almost as many posts in two months as I have in thirteen years... but somehow I'm silencing you.  ::)

I have explained many times why I placed the "no new topics" restriction on you. You are being held responsible for your claims. You want to flood the forum with so many claims that it makes us look incapable of disputing them all... so I'm putting the brakes on. You will defend the claims you have made until we are all satisfied that there is nothing more to say, and then we can move on to your other topics.

If you do not like this, you are free to start your own forum.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2025, 01:57:20 PM by LunarOrbit »
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #603 on: January 05, 2025, 02:00:47 PM »
Those two lack merit too, you're just not capable of accepting it yet.
For the 8 flag motions - please tell me where my claim is "lacking merit".   There are still ZERO counter-claims that anyone will even try to defend under scrutiny.  This one remains fully undebunked, for an extremely simple context of Flags Untouched in a vacuum -- being gently pushed towards the LM and held there for up to 15 seconds at a time.

I believe the explanation that the flag movements coincide with venting from the LM makes sense. You have provided no counter argument to satisfactorily dispute it, you have merely dismissed it as "not viable".
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #604 on: January 05, 2025, 02:56:50 PM »
I believe the explanation that the flag movements coincide with venting from the LM makes sense. You have provided no counter argument to satisfactorily dispute it, you have merely dismissed it as "not viable".
If you want to stand by this, under scrutiny, please re-open the thread which pertains to this, and we can discuss.   That thread went off topic (like this one), because NOBODY would stand by their claim under scrutiny.

Since you seem to think this claim makes sense -- let's re-scrutinize it, and see how you explain that "it makes sense"...  So far, no one else will champion this, because the TD defense unquestionably falls apart.

In short, there has been NO WAY to justify the 5 motions TOWARDS THE LM.  Attempts were:
1. It swung back like a pendulum.
2. The pole itself did 360's...
3. The pole was leaning towards the LM, and so "resting position was on-screen"

Do you have something new to suggest?  Or do you want to champion any of these already-failed theories?  I'd be happy to re-debunk these claims for you.

#1 and #2 are too easy -- the motion onto the screen is steady/slow, holds steady for 5-15 seconds at a time... so CLEARLY is NOT a pendulum motion, nor a 360 swinging motion.

Only #3 merits some discussion - and so I addressed it in my doc:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KnnsXE97fKJZ-CJYv7j_G9eVdgwW960LUeOCGz5uarE/edit?usp=sharing

See page 2.

So there is the "scrutiny" - perhaps you'd like to explain how this scrutiny can be explained away.  So far, no one will even attempt it.   Perhaps you can be the first.

Otherwise, that thread is "DONE" - not because I don't want to discuss it, but because nobody else has anything to say against the scrutiny.


Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #605 on: January 05, 2025, 03:01:36 PM »
I have unlocked the flag thread. Defend your claim and stay on topic, or I will lock it again.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #606 on: January 05, 2025, 03:03:32 PM »
You want to flood the forum with so many claims that it makes us look incapable of disputing them all... so I'm putting the brakes on.
I joined Nov 22nd, made 5 threads total-- and you put the brakes on, Nov 24th..   6 weeks ago.

I'd like to introduce a couple more threads, and drive them to completion, as we have with the prior ones.   I have legitimate sincere desire for TRUTH here... not a meaningless Gish Gallop.   I HATE bad arguments, and makes me sick when I see MLH videos/links using bad arguments (which is the majority of them).

So I'm only trying to investigate the ones that I truly/sincerely think might hold weight.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #607 on: January 05, 2025, 03:09:23 PM »
I have unlocked the flag thread. Defend your claim and stay on topic, or I will lock it again.
Thank you.  But if no one wants to discuss it, I'd recommend leaving it open - but just not talking about anything else.

Speaking of "off track" - -can we consider THIS thread "concluded" as well?   Leave it open, in case someone much later wants to comment, but for now, there is no more discussion to be had.  I have withdrawn my claim that the Lunar Launches are Too Fast.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #608 on: January 05, 2025, 03:15:40 PM »
You want to flood the forum with so many claims that it makes us look incapable of disputing them all... so I'm putting the brakes on.
I joined Nov 22nd, made 5 threads total-- and you put the brakes on, Nov 24th..   6 weeks ago.

And you've still made over 800 posts in that time.

Quote
I'd like to introduce a couple more threads, and drive them to completion, as we have with the prior ones.   I have legitimate sincere desire for TRUTH here... not a meaningless Gish Gallop.   I HATE bad arguments, and makes me sick when I see MLH videos/links using bad arguments (which is the majority of them).

So I'm only trying to investigate the ones that I truly/sincerely think might hold weight.

NO. This is the last time I will say it. You will defend your existing claims until we are all satisfied that there is nothing else to say. I am not going to let you waste the time of the other members of the forum with a flood of claims that you will not defend.

If you continue to argue this with me I will ban you.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #609 on: January 05, 2025, 03:28:11 PM »
Speaking of "off track" - -can we consider THIS thread "concluded" as well?   Leave it open, in case someone much later wants to comment, but for now, there is no more discussion to be had.  I have withdrawn my claim that the Lunar Launches are Too Fast.
Coward. You ran away from the dust thread and now you want to avoid rebuttal to your now crappy claims on this thread!

I want to point out something quite significant that has had an utterly useless "explanation" provided. The whole Apollo 17 launch seen was part of continued footage from the moment the rover was parked. It involved considerable activity in and around the LM with the identical background. Schmitt throws a hammer and we even see it glint as it reaches zenith.

I cannot understand how any reasonable person can look at that and not see how ridiculous it would be to fake that in 1972.
You do realise that debate works both ways don't you? You present your claim, it get answered then counter-claim. you've run away from counter claims in the dust thread, are you going to do the same here?

I detailed one of them above where we see astronauts walking around the identical LM and backdrop on Apollo 17. Well, it didn't occur to me that Apollo 16 would also provide such clear and obvious evidence. But oh does it ever!

Activity around the final rover spot and camera zooms to LM - astronaut approaches LM:
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a16/a16v.1704507.mpg

This is the one - activity around the LM that if najak says is faked, then it shows he really is delusional:
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a16/a16v.1704820.mpg

Static camera activity continues:
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a16/a16v.1705138.mpg

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #610 on: January 05, 2025, 07:55:31 PM »
Like Lunar Orbit here, Rasa also uses his home-court advantage to employ biases in favor of MLH.

Rasa is nothing like LO. I have yet to see anyone here say that they have had posts/comments deleted, simply because they showed where LO (or someone else posting) was wrong. Rasa, however, and the other mods, routinely hide/delete comments/posts that show they are incorrect in their statements. Even something as simple as Rasa claiming person X is in a photo, when in reality it was person Y, comments correcting him will get removed.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #611 on: January 05, 2025, 08:01:35 PM »
Rasa is nothing like LO. I have yet to see anyone here say that they have had posts/comments deleted, simply because they showed where LO (or someone else posting) was wrong. Rasa, however, and the other mods, routinely hide/delete comments/posts that show they are incorrect in their statements. Even something as simple as Rasa claiming person X is in a photo, when in reality it was person Y, comments correcting him will get removed.
No comment. :)  Rasa and I haven't always been on the best of terms, as he threatened to ban me a few times as well, for correcting the way they truth TD's (Truth Defenders!).

I tried to convince Rasa, to no avail, to create a Neutral zone, and to treat TD's as our friends, not "trolls".  I do think he changed his behavior considerably after me hounding him in private, and expressing my rationale for making things more neutral.   I've noticed a change...

But still, if anyone comes to Rasa's FB, I'll be nice, and encourage others to do the same.

Neutral debate forums - that's my biggest desire.  In the end -- We Are One.   We're all in this together.

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #612 on: January 06, 2025, 08:34:14 AM »
Pretend you are an ordinary person wanting to find out "why do some people question the moon landing", then turn to Google/YT and see what you can find. 
This is easy for me. When I first encountered the idea that the Moon landings had been faked, I didn't feel I had enough information to draw a conclusion in either direction. So I researched. I quickly found the absence of good evidence for the hoax to which you allude. Absence of evidence, however, is not evidence of absence, so I decided to vet the evidence I could find in support of the Apollo program. A great deal of it was over my head, so I had to do a lot of research in a number of different fields to be sure that what I was seeing was accurate. I had to brush up on my calculus and physics, I learned a great deal about geology, radiation, engineering, etc. It took months, and while I lack any professional qualifications, I learned enough to recognize that things I was reading were verifiably true. I was also willing to find materials that weren't available on the internet to assist my research.

Your insistence on only vetting hoax material is a critical flaw in your process. Attempting to debunk the supporting evidence would be even more valuable for proving a hoax claim, but you're unwilling to exert that kind of effort.

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But if you look up Flat Earth - you'll find PLENTY of videos by people who actually believe the Earth is Flat -- AND also don't think we went to the moon.
I spent a great deal of time engaging with flat earthers (far too much time, tbh) and trying to identify and correct their errors. I know you're too close to the problem to see this, but your arguments are not fundamentally different in structure or scope than theirs.

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So why is it easy to find PRO "Flat Earth videos", but NOT for "Moon Landing Hoax"???   In my view, there is a distinct difference between the two -- the first one, Flat Earth, is FALSE, and therefore not a threat to our government and societal world view.  The 2nd one -- is different.

And so, it's TRUE that for this forum to be NEUTRAL would work AGAINST NASA... 
This is catastrophically poor reasoning. As usual, you have reached a conclusion, sought any scrap of support for it, no matter how flimsy, discarded anything that doesn't confirm your assumptions, and proceeded to base even worse conclusions on that initial assumption.

No Gish Gallop, because Gish Gallop relies upon NOT REACHING A CONCLUSION -- making a claim, but then changing the subject with intent of NEVER resolving the claim you made -- leaving some viewers with ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE CLAIM, never cross-examined to conclusion.   We've completed this thread.  Conclusion and CONSENSUS has been reached -- there is no longer ANYONE HERE who believes this "Lunar Launch Too Fast" claim holds weight to prove a hoax.  No one. 
We'll add Gish Gallop to the increasingly extensive list of things you don't understand. You haven't made 5 separate claims. You've made the single claim that the Moon landings were faked. You've introduced 5 separate threads that you believe are evidence of that claim. Each time you are cornered in one, you attempt to redirect to one that you mistakenly believe gives you surer footing. Your interest in presenting more poorly vetted evidence (which is also likely riddled with errors) is part of the Gish Gallop technique.

You continue to insist you're being mistreated, but you have failed at every step of the way to engage with any degree of honesty or integrity. I've suggested to you multiple times that you need to enter into discussions like these with far more preparation than you've been willing to do. You have ignored me every time and continued, essentially, saying "Apollo was hoax, prove me wrong!"

Your attitude and unwillingness to engage according to the rules of intellectual discourse are the problem. If you want to be treated differently, correct your behavior.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #613 on: January 06, 2025, 09:47:16 AM »
1. Attempting to debunk the supporting evidence would be even more valuable for proving a hoax claim...
2. Gish Gallop... Each time you are cornered in one, you attempt to redirect to one that you mistakenly believe gives you surer footing.

1. Attempting to debunk supporting evidence is why I'm here.  If I didn't want to see it debunked, I'd stay in an echo chamber where people are nice to me.

2. Gish gallop is when you do NOT discuss things to conclusion... on purpose.  I'm stating individual pieces of evidence that I believe have NOT been debunked and I'm trying to see if they CAN BE DEBUNKED... thus I'm here.   When one is debunked, I concede, as I should.   When I believe one IS NOT... I make note of it... marking it with "here is the best explanation the TD's have come up with so far."

One at a time -- TO CONCLUSION.   Gish Gallop MANDATES that you do NOT follow any of the specific claims to conclusion...  That is the premise of this Gish Gallop tactic.

In the case of a person saying why they believe the "cutting a woman in half magic trick" was "just a trick" - they might also mistakenly say "Saws aren't ABLE to cut a person in half" - and when proven that "yes, it's POSSIBLE for a saw to cut her in half" -- does that mean he's doing a Gish Gallop by saying "OK, I see that now; but what about the medical impossibility involved?"

There is a SERIES OF EVIDENCE that, in my view, seem to support MLH - and at this point, I don't know for sure which ones are true vs. not.

I've ALREADY TOSSED OUT MOST...  MOST ARE FLAWED, or overstated, or skewed, or misconstrued, etc.

But there are ones that remain, which should be discussed.  But currently aren't permitted.

Offline Mag40

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