Author Topic: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast  (Read 11036 times)

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #180 on: December 05, 2024, 04:10:49 AM »
Quote
Are you a nice person in real life?  Has life treated you poorly?  Does insulting me give you a dopamine boost?  Adrenaline?  Do you hate me?
Yes, no, no, no and no. If you think that I am insulting you, what does that make your 2 dozen or so arrival statements - crowing about how nobody knew what they were talking about.

Are you a nice person in real life?  Has life treated you poorly?  Does insulting everyone give you a dopamine boost?  Adrenaline?  Do you hate people who disagree with you?
Yes, no, no, no, and DEFINITELY NO -- I LOVE people who disagree with me.  It's who I prefer to hang with.

But I did show up with a lack of patience from a mismatch of expectations.  If I could do this over - I'd be nicer from the onset.  So please accept my apologies now.

I do get a dopamine boost from debating however, and get almost no dopamine at all from Echo Chambers.   Those make me feel stale and uninspired.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #181 on: December 05, 2024, 04:21:08 AM »
...
I'm pasting your whole note to the bottom of the current doc for reference.  When I'm done, we can compare our analyses.

It seems THIS thread as a bit more work to actually be done -- covering some new ground, and fresh objections.

Thank you for your involvement!   Give me a few days to catch up on these revisions.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3949
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #182 on: December 05, 2024, 09:51:43 AM »
Give me a few days to catch up on these revisions.

Be sure to incorporate the errors you made interpreting the sources you cited regarding thrust, and the ongoing misleading use of graphs you grabbed from sources whose context doesn't support your use.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3949
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #183 on: December 05, 2024, 12:24:07 PM »
Not "messing with you", I just made a statement based upon an incomplete pre-analysis.  It was a premature statement using a "1 msec fidelity requirement" estimate without appropriate backing.  I do not YET have sufficient grounds for making this statement. The 6 FPS vs 24 FPS wasn't part of this; that was just someone's assumption that I was unaware.

But do you understand how you keep leaving a paper trail that is best explained by you having just become aware of something you got wrong? The fact that you make mistakes isn't an issue. We all do, and we all have—even those of us with "insurmountable" (ha!) knowledge. What makes it a problem is that your instinctive reaction when this happens is to see if you can double down on the claim, shift the burden of proof, or otherwise save face. If you want to build a reputation for integrity, your first response should be, "I didn't know that; thanks for telling me."

People's ability to detect evasion is a lot more acute than you think. My spouse is a lawyer; I have some life experience with this. Does it sting a bit when someone surprises you with information that means you have to back down? Yes, of course. But if your goal is to achieve a reputation of integrity, you need to develop the skill of legitimately valuing truth and fact above all else. Remember when you discovered a mistake in your own computations, admitted it, and changed your presentation? Remember how the group's reaction was generally positive and supportive? Aim for that.

Literally everyone who sees the rendezvous footage for the first time doesn't realize it's sped up. They often get an "uncanny valley" vibe from it, but they don't know why. Most find out about the frame rate by being told; a few find out by digging deep and finding where it's documented. Either way, it's perfectly normal for people to be initially fooled. We all were, so don't feel bad.

Quote
Are you a nice person in real life?  Has life treated you poorly?  Does insulting me give you a dopamine boost?  Adrenaline?  Do you hate me?

As I said, my spouse is a lawyer and so are a lot of my friends—lawyers, law professors, law students. It's one thing to see them in court and another thing to see them at a cookout. Most of us are quite normal, nice people in real life. And you probably are too.

At work I have to be two people too. You have to achieve and maintain a collaborative culture where people actually want to come to work. But then as the senior engineer I have to sit in judgment on people's work and represent best practices, good judgment, and regulatory requirement. I can't let sloppiness or error slide just because Greg and I sometimes have drinks together after work. No, we don't all kick puppies or demand to see the manager everywhere we go. Circumstances sometimes dictate that people take a hard-nosed approach that's incompatible with their demeanor elsewhere.

This forum is adversarial by its very nature, thus creating just those narrow circumstances. Obviously it shouldn't be gratuitously nasty, but despite how its members might deal with their families, friends, and neighbors in real life, here the order of the day is to apply relatively unflinching rigor. Most of the questions we deal with are discernible matters of fact—they either happened or they didn't. Most of them involve detailed and specialized knowledge that not many possess. Most of them are copiously slathered with a predilection for a particular viewpoint. And sadly, a lot of the debate is framed in well-worn rhetorical stunts that have to be pared away before real discovery can occur. (Sadly one of those stunts is begging for quarter on emotional grounds—complaining about being picked on, etc.)

But I did show up with a lack of patience from a mismatch of expectations.  If I could do this over - I'd be nicer from the onset.  So please accept my apologies now.

Of course. It's not hard to get off on the wrong foot when—as I said—the very nature of the engagement is adversarial. I learn from my lawyer friends. No matter how enthusiastic or ruthless the litigants appear in court, outside of court they have to maintain cordial working relationships.

Does it make more sense now why I'm taking the thrust estimates step by step? Part of it is to disarm one rhetorical tactic I've seen you use where you place a heavy burden of proof on others, but then indicate a relatively insincere interest by sidestepping the result without materially engaging with it. That trick of always keeping the ball in someone else's court makes it seem like one side of the debate is always flailing or failing and therefore has the weaker position. Ironically the tactic usually masks a lack of rigor or evidence on the other side. By getting you to engage and contribute to the overall process, I'm investing you in it. That makes it harder for you later to say, "Yes, that's good but..." and then move on to some other question. Yes, this is a trick I learned from lawyers who have to cross-examine hostile witnesses. Yes, I'm telling you about it because my aim in using it is simply to strip away the rhetoric and look at the question honestly, not to trap you into losing a court case.

And part is to lead you see on your own any assumptions and misconceptions you may not consciously be aware of, or which you've borrowed from ill-informed conspiracy sources. I can't change your mind. But I can help you see reasons why you might want to change your own mind. If I just come at you with piss and vinegar, you'll shut down and dig in as we've seen you do. But if, for example, I get you to see that your sources may be giving you a simplistic view of the problem, then in most people this triggers a part of their brain that honestly wants to know more. We win not so much when we get the right answer, but when we get an answer for the right reasons.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1992
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #184 on: December 05, 2024, 12:28:39 PM »
Basically "100% integrity" or this kind of crap:
As we can see, even a weak/invalid argument works even for smart people, when that argument helps confirm their beliefs.

@Allan Folmerson - promised me smart scientific minds here.   So far, I'm not sensing it.   Where are the good scientists here, who understand high school physics concepts, at minimum?

I'm not sensing any "secret wisdom" yet.  Your logic skills seem insufficient for this debate.

Can you summon someone with a sufficient science background?  I really feel like I came knocking at the door, and the children have answered the door.   I just want to say "can you go get your dad for me?"

I really really want to talk with someone who's qualified for this debate.  You simply aren't it.   It's ok -- most aren't.  I'm hoping that someone here is qualified.   Please summon them.

Is there anyone here who think there is any integrity in defending this "spun circles" explanation?  We can put an "I suck at physics" dunce cap on them.
The smartest guys will avoid me, because they don't want to fight this losing battle.  They can't defend Apollo Breaking Physics.

Again, it seems I'm dealing with people here who do not understand basic simple high school physics.  Do I really need to make a physics-proof for you, for you to understand this?  This is basic high school physics concept.   Please learn this math/physics, before commenting on physics topics.

@Allen F - you promised me "smart scientific minds" here.  Please summon them, ASAP.

I suspect the smartest minds are staying out of this, because it's a losing battle for them.  Apollo is "breaking physics" here, which is impossible.

Did you ever take Physics in school?  What was your grade?   You seem to have no grasp of the basics.

@Kiwi -- please save these guys.  Can you say something intelligent here?  I didn't come here to berate people for being bad at science -- I came here for intelligent debate -- and so far finding no one with an adequate skillset in physics or logic.   I want a smart debate with competent science minds.

So as you advised, Mr. Scientist, it's time to change your hypothesis/theory, to match the actual evidence.

The Dunning-Kruger is strong in najak!
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #185 on: December 05, 2024, 07:28:00 PM »
Be sure to incorporate the errors you made interpreting the sources you cited regarding thrust, and the ongoing misleading use of graphs you grabbed from sources whose context doesn't support your use.
For these references on Solid-Fuel rocketry, if I keep them, I will note the appropriate disclaimer.  If you can provide more applicable references to replace them - I'll use those instead.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #186 on: December 05, 2024, 07:30:09 PM »
The Dunning-Kruger is strong in najak!
.. but not you or anyone else here... just me.  Got it.  I'm the witch.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3949
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #187 on: December 05, 2024, 07:32:34 PM »
For these references on Solid-Fuel rocketry, if I keep them, I will note the appropriate disclaimer.  If you can provide more applicable references to replace them - I'll use those instead.

Why is it always someone else's job to do the homework to correct your ignorance?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #188 on: December 05, 2024, 07:36:10 PM »
Does it make more sense now why I'm taking the thrust estimates step by step?
The ABSENCE of such an application of rocket science to debunk this "Launches to Fast" claim, is good enough for me. 

Why?  Because I don't think such a proof is even possible.  If other rocket scientists haven't been able to debunk this 40+ year old famous claim -- why would I think I could be FIRST...  nor you.

Does this make more sense now on why I don't want to go down some long path, with the notion that I'm going to do "groundbreaking work in Rocket science"?

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #189 on: December 05, 2024, 07:40:24 PM »
Why is it always someone else's job to do the homework to correct your ignorance?
I don't claim my ignorance here, but you do.  So it's your claim that I'm ignorant - so support it, so that I can assess your claim and evidence, then adjust accordingly.

You claim to care about my education -- so this should be an easy one for you.  Instead you prefer to be elusive/mysterious, while dodging providing any usable "meat" to this debate.

My most reasonable conclusion here is:  You don't, because you can't... just like the others before you.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3949
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #190 on: December 05, 2024, 07:41:53 PM »
The ABSENCE of such an application of rocket science to debunk this "Launches to Fast" claim, is good enough for me.

But who cares what's good enough for you? You're just one person. You want to claim Apollo was faked for the reason that the LM doesn't do what you think it should do. That's a conclusion that would apply to the whole world, because Apollo either happened as claimed or it didn't. Your expectation is based on your personal ignorance, so why does it hold for everyone else?

Quote
Does this make more sense now on why I don't want to go down some long path, with the notion that I'm going to do "groundbreaking work in Rocket science"?

You're not doing groundbreaking work. You're doing remedial work. You refuse to learn what's necessary to understand why your claim fails, so no one should care what you think.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3949
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #191 on: December 05, 2024, 07:42:54 PM »
I don't claim my ignorance here, but you do.  So it's your claim that I'm ignorant - so support it, so that I can assess your claim and evidence, then adjust accordingly.

You posted your sources. I explained why they don't say what you think they said. I posted additional sources that contradicted your claims. You haven't addressed any of that.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #192 on: December 05, 2024, 07:50:30 PM »
You posted your sources. I explained why they don't say what you think they said. I posted additional sources that contradicted your claims. You haven't addressed any of that.
Please show me the sources that you claim I have missed.  I'll be sure to record them.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3949
    • Clavius
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #193 on: December 05, 2024, 07:55:15 PM »
Please show me the sources that you claim I have missed.  I'll be sure to record them.

I don't care about your document. I asked you what sources you consulted to support your belief that thrust would always be diminished at launch. You posted three elementary websites and a Google AI reference. I responded to that in depth. You lately asked me on what basis I concluded that your claims were made in ignorance. That is the basis.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #194 on: December 05, 2024, 07:59:51 PM »
#1: ...the LM doesn't do what you think it should do.
#2: You're not doing groundbreaking work. You're doing remedial work. You refuse to learn what's necessary to understand why your claim fails, so no one should care what you think.
#3: But who cares what's good enough for you? You're just one person.
#1: LM acceleration indicates 27,000 kN NET upward force, steadily for 1 second.   We currently have NO THEORIES that explain this.
#2: If it's not groundbreaking - show me where this has been EVER BEEN DEBUNKED?
#3: Apparently it's also "good enough for you" - or you'd produce this FIRST EVER debunking proof.

You're the one claiming the ability to provide this proof, and that "many people care about it", including the Apollogists who love their claim "We've debunked EVERYTHING."  By not having this proof, you force this beloved claim to be FALSE.

So prove this point for "the many".   But I believe you simply "can't" which is why you "won't" -- the same as all others before you.