Author Topic: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast  (Read 10912 times)

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #285 on: December 07, 2024, 10:52:56 PM »
Thank you.
I find your terseness, mysterious and alluring.  Now I want to know what you are really thinking.  Teach me teacher. :)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #286 on: December 08, 2024, 12:01:57 AM »
Yes.  GenX/Y/Z won't want to dirty their hands with propagating a Lie, especially when it erroneously detracts from the magnitude of the accomplishment.
The consequences for being caught in such a huge lie would be embarrassing and damaging to the reputation of the United States. Why would they try to lie about something if they were 100% guaranteed to get caught?

If there was some obstacle preventing NASA from going to the Moon it would have been easier to just come right out and admit it then.
They see how religion is believed, yet if you simply read the bible, without bias, it provides you with all the evidence you need that Yahweh is a evil sadistic narcissistic hypocrite.  Yet 2.5 Billion people don't see it that way.   What does this tell them?   Creating a false belief is easy so long as people WANT to believe it, and you present it confidently.

This isn't a 2000 year old story that can't be verified. The Apollo decent modules are still on the Moon, or they aren't. Other countries, including those that are hostile towards the United States, can and have verified Apollo.

There is no way to maintain the lie, therefore it makes no logical sense to even try.

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And in the end, they have a "valid excuse" - they were "trying to win a Cold War" - to "deceive the Russians"

If there was some sort of obstacle that makes going to the Moon impossible, the Russians would have encountered it, too. At that point they would have known the United States was lying. The US knew Russia was trying to get to the Moon too, and likely would have discovered the same obstacle they did. Therefore, there would be no reason to lie about it.

If there is no obstacle preventing going to the Moon there is no reason to fake it.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #287 on: December 08, 2024, 10:28:03 AM »
#1: This isn't a 2000 year old story that can't be verified. The Apollo decent modules are still on the Moon, or they aren't. Other countries, including those that are hostile towards the United States, can and have verified Apollo.  There is no way to maintain the lie, therefore it makes no logical sense to even try.
#2: If there was some sort of obstacle that makes going to the Moon impossible, the Russians would have encountered it, too. At that point they would have known the United States was lying. The US knew Russia was trying to get to the Moon too, and likely would have discovered the same obstacle they did. Therefore, there would be no reason to lie about it.
I have a lot to say, but not on this very specific thread, where we are awaiting Jay to "debunk" the thesis I've made here.  We need a new thread, devoted to "why would we have lied?", and "how could we", and "Russia"... each deserves it's own thread - because there are many theses surrounding each separate sub-topic.

There's a reason we have "specific/narrow named threads" -- this is how forums are designed - so let's use this feature as it was intended.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2024, 10:30:04 AM by najak »

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #288 on: December 08, 2024, 11:07:26 AM »
I have a lot to say, but not on this very specific thread, where we are awaiting Jay to "debunk" the thesis I've made here.

You need to express that thesis as an energy balance equation, which you seem to have trouble doing. "Basic physics" is not just throwing out words like "conservation of energy" as if they were magic spells. I gave you hint to get you started. Do you need another?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #289 on: December 08, 2024, 11:54:22 AM »
"Basic physics" is not just throwing out words like "conservation of energy" as if they were magic spells.
Conservation of Energy is not "a word" -- it's a basic LAW - that cannot be broken.

Therefore,
{EC} = {EM} + {Heat*}   

(other factors might exist, but I believe are negligible, < 5% impact total)

where
EC = Energy released by combustion.
EM = Mechanical Energy Delta/chance (Potential + Kinetic)
Heat* = Heat + {other stuff not mechanical}

Rocket efficiency is a ratio of:
Efficiency = EM / EC,  which for this AM is about 60%.

This means that (approximately at steady state):
EM = 0.6 * EC   and   
Heat* = 0.4 EC

I am making the following simplifying assumption, between Launch vs. Steady State.
1. Fuel/Oxidizer Feed Rate about the same (11 lb/sec?)

Therefore,
EC is about the same, and
Heat* is about the same.

Therefore, we are trying to prove the following:

EM(expected) = 2.5 * EM(Expected)

Which simplifies to:
1 = 2.5

FALSE.

The "combustion formula" terms you are wanting to "delve into" simply "DROP OUT" of the solution.  It becomes a "DOESN'T MATTER" because it is "about the same" for both Steady-State vs. Launch.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #290 on: December 08, 2024, 11:57:12 AM »
"Basic physics" is not just throwing out words like "conservation of energy" as if they were magic spells. I gave you hint to get you started. Do you need another?
And "Rocket Science" is not just "words that equate to MAGIC" giving you the right to dismiss the fundamental/foundational laws of Basic Physics.

I've just shown how "what you want to focus on -- DROPS OUT" --- makes no difference to the final solution.

I believe you won't prove otherwise, because you CAN'T.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #291 on: December 08, 2024, 12:05:55 PM »
{EC} = {EM} + {Heat*}

Yes, that's the very basic concept of an energy balance equation. But in rocketry you have to go into more detail. The standard textbook does this in Chapter 2 (where they present their balance equation that includes all the terms), and in Chapter 5 where they put numbers into it.

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Heat* = Heat + {other stuff not mechanical}

Heat has to live in something. In rocketry, what does the heat live in that you get from this equation?

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Rocket efficiency is a ratio of:
Efficiency = EM / EC,  which for this AM is about 60%.

I will stipulate that this is an accurate enough figure. But exactly what energy does it talk about?

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This means that (approximately at steady state):
EM = 0.6 * EC   and   
Heat* = 0.4 EC

Yes, but where does the heat live? You keep limiting your examination of the problem to steady state, but this is not steady state. This is what happens before the rocket reaches steady state and ideal conditions.

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I am making the following simplifying assumption, between Launch vs. Steady State.
* * *
Heat* is about the same.

Where does that heat live? How might where it lives matter between launch conditions and steady state? The reason I pointed you towards enthalpy is that reasoning about changes in enthalpy requires you to reason about which effects are pathway dependent.

Knowing where heat lives is absolutely crucial in understanding the behavior of thermodynamic engines. Are you figuring it out yet?

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The "combustion formula" terms you are wanting to "delve into" simply "DROP OUT" of the solution.

No, they don't. They're still there. You just believe you can ignore them. What if you couldn't?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #292 on: December 08, 2024, 12:06:09 PM »
...
Your whole dance here can be summarized by this analogy.

You say: "I have 2 gold coins in my wallet to give."
I say: "But I see what's in your wallet - it's just 1 gold coin."
You say: "Ah but you don't understand molecular science well enough.  Let's do some molecular science, and you'll see that I really can produce 2 coins from 1."
I say: "Give the 2 gold coins and prove it."
You say: "I won't because you won't believe it.  Now show me that you understand molecular science, and I'll show you that you lack the skills required."
I say:  "Molecular science will not create 2 gold coins from 1, at least not in this context."
You say: "If you don't want to do this work, then that's on you."

====
You are trying to insert irrelevant complexity where none is needed.  I've seen this tactic before, and it most often conducted by people who are trying to hide the simple truth.

If you want to prove that this complexity is needed -- go ahead.  NO ONE HAS EVER DONE THIS BEFORE... you can be the first, and become famous.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #293 on: December 08, 2024, 12:07:15 PM »
I've just shown how "what you want to focus on -- DROPS OUT" --- makes no difference to the final solution.

No, you've asserted that it does. What if it doesn't under some conditions? What might those conditions look like?

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I believe you won't prove otherwise, because you CAN'T.

Or perhaps we're just getting you one step closer to figuring it out on your own.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #294 on: December 08, 2024, 12:08:30 PM »
Your whole dance here can be summarized by this analogy.

No, that's inaccurate.

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You are trying to insert irrelevant complexity where none is needed.

No, I'm trying to restore complexity you incorrectly think you can ignore.

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I've seen this tactic before, and it most often conducted by people who are trying to hide the simple truth.

Your "truth" is a little too simple.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #295 on: December 08, 2024, 12:21:45 PM »
#1: Heat has to live in something. In rocketry, what does the heat live in that you get from this equation?
#2: No, they don't. They're still there. You just believe you can ignore them. What if you couldn't?
#3: You keep limiting your examination of the problem to steady state, but this is not steady state. This is what happens before the rocket reaches steady state and ideal conditions.

#1: The exhaust, mostly.   For a time, it'll also be heating up the hardware (chamber, nozzle) - until those reach steady state.
#2: Show that we can't.
#3: Pre-Steady-State, from what I've seen, is WORSE efficiency than Steady-State -- resulting in Less Mechanical Energy... not MORE.

So make this proof 1 step at a time.  But as a good engineer would, START by showing the top level approach that you plan to take here.

Instead of saying "there are other things" - great say what they are.  One-Step-At-A-Time - but say something tangible/specific.

I think you DON'T because you CAN'T.  You can take me down these "windy paths of complexity" but none will enable you to disprove the fundamental laws of Physics.

So you'll continue down these paths forever and ever -- so that we can avoid getting to the end - where you simply lose.   You are trying to prove the impossible.

So -- if you think you really CAN - prove it.  You'll be the FIRST EVER... and be famous.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #296 on: December 08, 2024, 12:26:38 PM »
Or perhaps we're just getting you one step closer to figuring it out on your own.
40+ years, this famous MLH claim has stood, NON-DEBUNKED.

Your tactic is clear.  Stall with mysterious vagueness and suggestions of complexity -- to elude the Truth.

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #297 on: December 08, 2024, 12:43:05 PM »
I think you DON'T because you CAN'T.  You can take me down these "windy paths of complexity" but none will enable you to disprove the fundamental laws of Physics.
So -- if you think you really CAN - prove it.  You'll be the FIRST EVER... and be famous.
Your bolded and repetitive posturing is getting real tedious now. Answer his questions and get educated. You are the one stalling here and have nothing to lose!


Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #298 on: December 08, 2024, 12:55:29 PM »
Your bolded and repetitive posturing is getting real tedious now. Answer his questions and get educated. You are the one stalling here and have nothing to lose!
I know his tactic, as we just saw again -- I answer, and he responds with a dozen pedantic questions, trying to paint the picture (which all here will believe) that he's smarter than me... and therefore must be right.  He'll continue to do this, until I rightfully wear out - while his followers think this equates to victory.

This is NOT MY CLAIM.  It's a 40+ year old famous UNDEBUNKED CLAIM.

It hasn't been debunked, because it cannot be debunked.  And Jay either knows this (and is deceiving you) or he's not as smart as you all think he is.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #299 on: December 08, 2024, 12:58:54 PM »
The exhaust, mostly.

Correct. And compressible fluids that possess heat can do pressure-volume work. This is the basic principle of a thermodynamic engine. Those fluids want to expand, and when they do, they can be harnessed to do mechanical work. That's how most engines work.

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For a time, it'll also be heating up the hardware (chamber, nozzle) - until those reach steady state.

Correct, and well spotted. The heat that goes into raising the temperature of the rocket hardware is effectively unrecoverable and therefore a true loss. That's not true for all heat in the system.

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Show that we can't.

Show that you get to. We've got a working fluid in a thermodynamic engine that possesses heat. You don't get to just ignore it. That's why the basic thrust equation doesn't.

F = ṁ ⋅ ve + (pe - p0) ⋅ A

The blue term is what we get from the kinetic energy of the exhaust that we created in the de Laval nozzle, which takes a part of the energy of combustion. The rest of the energy of combustion that remains as heat in the working fluid (irrespective of its kinetic energy) is slightly reduced by transferring heat to the chamber, but then lives on as static pressure in the exhaust at the exit plane. That's the maroon term.

It isn't negligible, even at steady state. The energy efficiency calculations for rocket motors do tend to focus on the kinetic energy part. But a significant portion of a rocket's thrust in a vacuum is pressure thrust. The pressure-thrust term is often zero at launches in atmosphere because we can design a nozzle that produces static exit plane pressure that's equal to the ambient. No pressure difference means no pressure-volume work. But no such nozzle can exist in a vacuum. The contribution of the pressure term increases in vacuum.

Now in free flight in a vacuum, the plume can expand in all directions freely once it leaves the nozzle. That doesn't eliminate the effect altogether, but it does limit how much the expansion in the direction of the rocket can be harnessed to perform pressure-volume. What would happen if that expansion were limited in certain directions by relatively immovable objects? What would happen to the pressure-volume work capacity in the direction of the thing that can move? What if the mechanical arrangement of rocket and surroundings briefly created a kind of cylinder with the spacecraft as a kind of piston?

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Pre-Steady-State, from what I've seen, is WORSE efficiency than Steady-State...

No, no, no. You've fallen back into confusing the different kinds of mechanisms that produce thrust. Remember how you were confusing chamber pressure with ambient pressure?

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So make this proof 1 step at a time.

What do you think I'm doing?

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But as a good engineer would, START by showing the top level approach that you plan to take here.

The top level approach begins with the energy balance equation and understanding how the various terms apply.

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Instead of saying "there are other things" - great say what they are.

What do you think I'm doing? The other thing is heat—but heat contained in a working fluid. I'm leading you carefully to an understanding of why you don't get to ignore it as you did. If you were to set aside all your silly posturing for a minute and pay attention, you might actually figure it out on your own.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams