Hoax? - Flag moves without being Touched

[TimberWolfAu]

Jet's calculation of expected Pascals of pressure by the time this reaches the flag is miniscule - not enough to budget the flag.... and much less "cause it to spin circles".

Jett's "calculations" are based on the data from the CCGE, 180 metres away! Sacred feth, it's almost like you don't actually look at anything you cite. Jett references the chart from the CCGE as the basis for his "calculations", the CCGE was 180m away.

The smartest guys will avoid me, because they don't want to fight this losing battle.  They can't defend Apollo Breaking Physics.

Someone's got tickets on themselves.

[najak]

Jett's "calculations" are based on the data from the CCGE, 180 metres away! Sacred feth, it's almost like you don't actually look at anything you cite. Jett references the chart from the CCGE as the basis for his "calculations", the CCGE was 180m away.

THANK YOU FOR THE CORRECTION!   Jet Wintzer - LOSES AGAIN.  I should have double-checked his logic, so thank you for pointing this out.   He doesn't account for the distance difference - because he's worse at physics than most of the people responding to me.    Well, he's batting about 0%.  I thought that maybe his 2017 MHN was "accurate" -- nope!

OK, so I'll fix his math, and see where it lands.   Assuming NASA's readout claims are accurate, we see a spike to 0.0000006 Torr == 80e-6 Pascals.

At most, the pressure felt by objects closer to the LM would vary by the inverse of the Distance Cubed  (this ignores the impact of gravity which pulls the particles downward, not letting them go up as far, and also that the ground blocks the bottom half of expansion.  So this math will assume we are in an empty vacuum with no moon nor gravity...  and then the pressure would vary by Cube-of-Distance.

180 / 8 = 22.5 =>  CUBED ==>   11,390 x higher pressure at the flag (8 meters away).
11390 * 80e-6 ==> 0.911 Pascals.

This equates to about 0.2 lbs per square meter, or about 0.33 lbs on the whole flag (1.67 sq-meters).   The average moment arm would be 2.5'.   

So the max force on this flag is 0.33 lbs exerted at 2.5' moment from the vertical pole. (5.3 ounces).

Questions:
1. So is this enough force to overcome friction and turn the pole at all?  [Perhaps.]
2. Is this enough to cause the flag to move so fast that it does a 360??   [Not Bloody Likely.]
3. If it were enough to do a 360, as it passed the 180 deg AWAY mark and started to rotate back towards the LM -- wouldn't this same "breeze" push BACK ON IT!??   Thus stopping it from doing the 360?  [YES.]
4. Are the readings of this CCGE even "reasonable" or does it appear to be a cheap attempt by NASA at damage control?  (by saying it was the MINIMUM reading that could have explained some flag motion?)

Is 6e-7 torr "reasonable" at 180 meters away.   Should this is 7 lbs of oxygen released over a 5-8 minute time period, produce that level of pressure?
Sanity check -- we've got 7 lbs of Oxygen TOTAL, released over 4 minutes minimum... < 2 lbs/min released...   expanding unconstrained...  yet somehow, 0.33 lbs of it (16% of the minute's amount in terms of mass) is supposedly pressing against this flag?   Not Bloody Likely.   

The issue with Apollo's lies, is that mainstream scientists are forced to accept Apollo's claims as "true", which then screws with real science.

===
SO - THANKS For the correction!   2 points for you.   I should have double-checked Jet's claim.

But the conclusion is fully unchanged.  There is still NO EXPLANATION from PNA's on what could cause the Flag to move TOWARDS the LM, 4X, as it did.

[bknight]

I gave you the explanation and you just attempted to hand wave it off/away, very sad that you are not intelligent to understand physics.

[najak]

I gave you the explanation and you just attempted to hand wave it off/away, very sad that you are not intelligent to understand physics.

   I hope you have other talents.

[bknight]

I gave you the explanation and you just attempted to hand wave it off/away, very sad that you are not intelligent to understand physics.

   I hope you have other talents.

You have demonstrated tht you don' have any talents.

[Zakalwe]

Boys, play nicely please. This isn't a primary school yard.

[najak]

Can ANYONE provide a valid explanation of how on the moon, the flag was pushed TOWARDS the LM??

Anyone??

@JayUtah, what say you?

[JayUtah]

@JayUtah, what say you?

I say no Gish gallop for you.

[najak]

I say no Gish gallop for you.

So far, you always do a dance to avoid giving what should be EASY answers for a veteran like you.  Your lack of response supports my theory that there exists NO valid rebuttal for this flag motion. 

Can ANYONE here present a valid rebuttal???
<crickets...>

[JayUtah]

So far, you always do a dance to avoid giving what should be EASY answers for a veteran like you.

What makes me a veteran is not falling for the Gish gallop approach.

[TimberWolfAu]

Can ANYONE provide a valid explanation of how on the moon, the flag was pushed TOWARDS the LM??

Anyone??

@JayUtah, what say you?

Yup, the flag rotated on its vertical axis during/after depressurisation of the LM for EVA 2. Hell, it doesn't even need to rotate once, just a half revolution will do. You can account for multiple movements by the initial forces applied to the flag, being enough to ruffle the 'free' edge of the flag in the initial purge (since in the absence of an atmosphere, only the materials 'stiffness' and local gravity will cause the motion to cease, thus creating longer and larger motion than we would be used to seeing), then the full depressurisation turning the flag away from the LM (as shown by later photos).

And yes, I'm well aware you don't agree, but I've stopped caring at this point. This lines up with the timeframe of what was occurring at the time, and has the added bonus of not requiring any unnecessary confounding variables, such as a multi-decade, multi-country, multi-government conspiracy that has never leaked, which you have yet to support.

[najak]

Yup, the flag rotated on its vertical axis during/after depressurisation of the LM for EVA 2. Hell, it doesn't even need to rotate once, just a half revolution will do. You can account for multiple movements by the initial forces applied to the flag, being enough to ruffle the 'free' edge of the flag in the initial purge (since in the absence of an atmosphere, only the materials 'stiffness' and local gravity will cause the motion to cease, thus creating longer and larger motion than we would be used to seeing), then the full depressurisation turning the flag away from the LM (as shown by later photos).

So your belief is the following?
1. 7 lbs of oxygen was emitted during an 8 minute "depressurization phase" from 8 meters away.   1-2 lbs of oxygen per minute...  1 ounce per second, max.
2. This 1 ounce per second of air, which spreads out evenly in all directions... hit this flag with enough force to move it 180 degrees?

When it comes on screen, we can see the "slant" at the top of the flag, showing it's attachment to the horizontal pole off-screen.

This slant is very telling -- indicating a force pushing the flag TOWARDS the LM, steadily for seconds at a time.

The pendulum like oscillations which can occur, are only 2.4x slower than on earth... in case you were suggesting that this on-screen time was part of this pendulum action, made extra-extra slow by low gravity.

After reviewing it, do you really think your explanation here holds water?  How do you explain the slanting of the flag as it's pushed TOWARDS the LM?

(NOTE: this flag has 6 white stripes.. the top one is almost entirely offscreen... the bottom 5 are all on screen)

[najak]

What makes me a veteran is not falling for the Gish gallop approach.

My specific claim here is the one part of the "Flag moving claim" that remains fully unrefuted by any scientifically founded rebuttal.

If I were throwing at you a bunch of "already debunked" claims -- this would be Gish gallop.  I'm limiting my claims to the parts that have not been legitimately refuted.

It seems to me that you are dancing, because I'm bringing to the table the aspects of MLH theory that have no valid scientific refutation.

[bknight]

Yup, the flag rotated on its vertical axis during/after depressurisation of the LM for EVA 2. Hell, it doesn't even need to rotate once, just a half revolution will do. You can account for multiple movements by the initial forces applied to the flag, being enough to ruffle the 'free' edge of the flag in the initial purge (since in the absence of an atmosphere, only the materials 'stiffness' and local gravity will cause the motion to cease, thus creating longer and larger motion than we would be used to seeing), then the full depressurisation turning the flag away from the LM (as shown by later photos).

So your belief is the following?
1. 7 lbs of oxygen was emitted during an 8 minute "depressurization phase" from 8 meters away.   1-2 lbs of oxygen per minute...  1 ounce per second, max.
2. This 1 ounce per second of air, which spreads out evenly in all directions... hit this flag with enough force to move it 180 degrees?

When it comes on screen, we can see the "slant" at the top of the flag, showing it's attachment to the horizontal pole off-screen.

This slant is very telling -- indicating a force pushing the flag TOWARDS the LM, steadily for seconds at a time.

The pendulum like oscillations which can occur, are only 2.4x slower than on earth... in case you were suggesting that this on-screen time was part of this pendulum action, made extra-extra slow by low gravity.

After reviewing it, do you really think your explanation here holds water?  How do you explain the slanting of the flag as it's pushed TOWARDS the LM?

(NOTE: this flag has 6 white stripes.. the top one is almost entirely offscreen... the bottom 5 are all on screen)

I already gave you this scenario many posts back.  Look at it like this dynamic energy stored as static energy that must be released to come to equilibrium and the flag oscillates.  There is no gravity function other than the flag hanging down from the cross bar.    You really are bad at this.  Yes this explanation is much better than your blowing toward the LM.

[najak]

I already gave you this scenario many posts back.  Look at it like this dynamic energy stored as static energy that must be released to come to equilibrium and the flag oscillates.  There is no gravity function other than the flag hanging down from the cross bar.    You really are bad at this.  Yes this explanation is much better than your blowing toward the LM.

I'd like to know if ANYONE else reading this agrees with your scientific explanation.  Your apparent understanding of physics doesn't seem on par with the understanding of many other members here.