Impossible Film Tech?

[najak]

What? You literally just said that it was "substantial" in the other thread. It's flimsy, miniscule, barely noticeable, like wafting your hand. Your attempts at trying to explain away time up = time down have failed.

The "initial suction" IS substantial, just as it the suction of a 1" diameter suction dart, can require up to 10 lbs of force to pull it off the window.   The foot against the dust, may create a similar situation.

And here again, this conclusion is tentative.  You refuted my original claim that it was much more substantial for the entire rise.   I conceded and changed my stance.

This is the FIRST I've argued this point to this level of detail, and so I am prone to tertiary mistakes.  As mistakes are exposed, I concede and adjust my stance.  As should you.

Do you disagree that there is an upcurrent of air in the wake of this boot rising?  I believe this a point that you need to "concede on, and then adjust your stance"

[Mag40]

The "initial suction" IS substantial,

That is just bollocks. It's no more than an arm wafting across the surface.

just as it the suction of a 1" diameter suction dart, can require up to 10 lbs of force to pull it off the window.

False equivalence fallacy. This is just made up nonsense.

The foot against the dust, may create a similar situation.

No it may not. It will create a very slight pressure drop that potentially could move a few grains of sand. The overwhelming force is friction, on the Moon a nice helping of static attraction and dust cohesion.

And here again, this conclusion is tentative.  You refuted my original claim that it was much more substantial for the entire rise.   I conceded and changed my stance.

Change it to reality! It is barely anything at all.

This is the FIRST I've argued this point to this level of detail, and so I am prone to tertiary mistakes.  As mistakes are exposed, I concede and adjust my stance.  As should you.

You look after your own errors. The force is minuscule. If you suggest otherwise your understanding of physics is seriously flawed.

Do you disagree that there is an upcurrent of air in the wake of this boot rising?  I believe this a point that you need to "concede on, and then adjust your stance"

Which part of the equivalence to an arm wafting across the surface, do you not understand? Minsicule. Barely a few grains disturbed. Certainly questionable whether it is enough to drag even a few grains off of the ground.

[najak]

@Mag40 - gonna cut this off here, and take it back to Sand post instead.

[Mag40]

@Mag40 - gonna cut this off here, and take it back to Sand post instead.

The hell you are! You have this evaded post a show stopper for any objective person:

1. "dust at apex" - In an atmosphere, the boot leaves a temporal vacuum suction in it's wake (you are aware of this fact, yes).

It's mainly friction.

This temporary vacuum only lasts a very short time, but this suction effect pulls the dust upwards as the boot rises.  As the boot reaches apex, it's upward velocity slows, and the vacuum effect instantly dissipates, leaving that dust to fall at earth gravity.

Nope - mainly friction. I specifically posted a gif of volleyball on the beach and the same sandy colour against a sandy background shows the same thing. Earth gravity has the dust disappearing instantly in the same irrelevant way. Just because it's harder to see doesn't mean a thing.

While the Cernan falls slower due to partial suspension.  This is what would be EXPECTED to be seen on earth, per MLH theory.

That is just bollocks. The dust impacts simultaneously with his feet touching the ground on 3 successive jumps. Should I fetch where you said it was sliding along the ground?

The dust falling from apex too fast, is the damning evidence here.  This is IMPOSSIBLE on the moon.   The "Hippity" clip supports MLH, not PNA.

Grey on grey and a poor quality video. The only damning thing is your persistent obfuscation. What you can or cannot observe with the conditions present is totally irrelevant.

Once more your evasion on this matter is noted and starting to deliberately irritate now.
That's Cernan at apex with a clear dust wave.

The dust reaches apex at the same time as he does. Time up = time down. Which part of that confuses you?

2. "parabola" - why use this term?  Parabola's are the same shape on moon and earth, with a 2.4X speed difference, that's all.

Because it is a parabola. Because it is visible. Because it reaches apex in a beautifully consistent synchronised motion with his jump.

I assume you are talking about the "faint dust" that appears on YOUR gif (but NOT the one from NASA's own site)

You are lying. The dust parabola is visible on every NASA version.

But let's assume YOUR source is accurate -- we see at 4-5 frames after liftoff, that there is a patch of dust that STARTED moving upwards at a FASTER rate.

And once again with the diversion avoiding the issue. My source is 100% accurate and if you suggest it has been doctored or any other HB lie along those lines, than people will start to see your true nature.

this of course may end up hitting apex at around the same time as John.

Rubbish, it is a blob on your crusty copy of the footage! Most of the dust travels forward. Once more you avoid points I have raised. If you think I am suddenly going to let you away with this, think again.

Additionally, in atmosphere, the lighter dust experiences more air resistance, which also slows it's falling a bit -- also giving you this effect.

And not visible on the volleyball clip! All diversion from the main point.

3. 4 ft high is not "ridiculous amount".

Of course it is! So is the distance involved.

Since we can't see the fall, we have less idea about suspensions.

Nonsense, we see no suspension at all on the leading section of the event.

This is a Half-parabola, giving us less physics to analyze.

Irrelevant in the extreme. We have enough to analyse it by height, projected distance and force.

BUT the full clip is explained by him simply kicking his leg twice as hard as you thought he did.   This is a feasible and reasonable MLH theory.

There is nothing reasonable about this it all. I do not believe you think that. No honest physicist would look at that totally weird looking dust wave and conclude it looks Earth-like.

I'm still waiting for you to expand on your bare assertion about the time. I've done a manual check and his figures are spot on.

Keep trying.

Keep running away from the evidence. The game is up and you've been here less than a week. Your credibility is now in question since you are clearly evading the obvious on 3 separate matters. Smart people show they are smart by their actions not by bragging about it whilst showing they aren't.


John Young Jump
1. There is a nice parabolic arc of dust in perfect sync with his jump and the same height. Time up = Time down.
2. Disipation is irrelevant grey on grey on poor grainy video.
3. We clearly see shaded areas on the ground moving forwards away from Young.

Gene Cernan Bunny Hops
1. There is a nice parabolic arc of dust level with his boot. Time up = Time down.
2. Disipation is irrelevant grey on grey on poor grainy video.
3. We clearly see 3 impact areas on the ground for each of the last 3 jumps.

Dust Sideways kick
1. The height of this wave is just plain wrong for a little boot flick.
2. The distance requires >7m per second force with a sideways kick? That's ridiculous.
3. No dust suspension, no matter what you claim.
4. Adjusted for gravity without the unsubstantiated, unproven selective magic speed video, the astronauts look extremely unnatural.

Members should be made aware of your truly daft claim that the upward "draft" from a suction vacuum is responsible for lifting the dust off of the surface! Simple experiment, place bucket 1/4 inch from surface and yank it up - are you seriously claiming that the bucket pulls up a column of dirt/sand/dust?

You have nowhere to go now. Cernan and Young jumps both show dust level with boot at apex. Time up = time down. The dust is not on wires therefore......an honest physicist fills in the details.

[najak]

This is the wrong thread for this discussion - we have an active/vibrant thread already dedicated to "Dust falls to fast".   In this thread, you are off-topic.   This thread is about Film/Video Tech of 1969.