Hoax? - Sand Falls too Fast.

[LunarOrbit]

You're saying it is wrong, so prove it.

I'm also saying "it's secondary".   If Mag40 is too lazy to find a good source for his claim - then it's a non-point.  Unsubstantiated.  Nothing to disprove here.

I am telling you right now, that your continued membership in this forum DEPENDS on you disproving the response given to you by Mag40, regardless of whether you trust the source of the information, or admitting that you can't.

[najak]

2.5 years later -- On the moon. 6x in a row.  No issues.   And a GREAT MANY mess-ups that have been noticed.... things unexplainable "if it were real".

This is factually false. They didn't land on the moon 6 times in a row. They landed twice in a row and then four times in a row. Your claim of no issues is also false, as every single mission had substantial problems that needed to be resolved or they would have been forced to abort.

Clarification- "no fatal issues", in an environment where most failures would normally be fatal.   I should have said "fatal" - your assumption that I don't know about Apollo 13 is silly.  Everyone knows of A13.

[najak]

I am telling you right now, that your continued membership in this forum DEPENDS on you disproving the response given to you by Mag40, regardless of whether you trust the source of the information, or admitting that you can't.

OK here's the answer Mag40:

 "I don't know the answer.  If you think you do, can you please supply a source?" 

As of now, I see NO SOURCES that adequately apply to this niche of science.

So as of now it's just one "guess vs. another".... without sources.  So far, I have none, nor does Mag40.

For fun, I asked Google AI, "why does sand rise with your boot when you jump?"

And it answered:
"When you jump, you create a sudden downward force on the sand. This force pushes the sand grains apart, creating small pockets of air between them. As you leave the ground, the air pressure beneath your boot increases, forcing the sand grains upwards into these pockets. This upward force is what causes the sand to rise with your boot."

No mention of static attraction, or friction, or adhesion -- in this answer it's ALL about AIR PRESSURE.... which was my FIRST GUESS.

I don't put stock in this answer -- except that "air pressure plays a role".

And if air pressure does play a role- then there IS upward force happened AFTER LIFTOFF -- so it's NOT a standard "Trajectory parabola" - it's something else.  Which breaks the rule of "time up = time down".

[Mag40]

OK here's the answer Mag40:

 "I don't know the answer.

I know you don't know. I knew that when you started the bollocks about the suction cup.

If you think you do, can you please supply a source?" 

Understanding Why Sand Rises When Someone Jumps on the Beach

When a person jumps on the beach, several physical principles come into play that explain why sand appears to rise or shift. This phenomenon can be attributed to the interaction between the person’s weight, the properties of sand, and friction.

1. The Mechanics of Jumping

When a person jumps, they exert a force against the ground (in this case, the sand) as they push off. According to Newton’s Third Law of Motion, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, when a person pushes down on the sand with their feet, the sand pushes back with an equal force. This downward force causes some of the sand particles to be displaced.

2. Properties of Sand

Sand is composed of numerous small particles that are not tightly packed together; instead, they have spaces between them filled with air. This loose arrangement allows for movement when external forces are applied. When someone jumps onto the sand, their weight compresses these particles together momentarily before they are displaced due to the upward force generated by jumping.

3. The Role of Friction

Friction plays a significant role in this process. The interaction between the soles of a person’s shoes (or bare feet) and the surface of the sand creates frictional forces that help anchor them momentarily before jumping. However, once they jump and apply enough force to overcome this frictional grip, some sand particles are lifted into the air due to both vertical displacement from their initial position and lateral movement caused by shifting weight.

The friction between individual grains of sand also affects how easily they can move relative to one another. If there is high friction among grains (which can occur if they are wet or compacted), it may require more force to displace them compared to dry or loose sand where grains slide past each other more easily.

4. Resulting Movement of Sand

As a result of these interactions—force from jumping and friction—the upper layers of sand become agitated and can rise or scatter outward from where the jump occurred. This effect is often visually noticeable as small clouds or plumes of sand that appear when someone lands heavily on a beach.

5. Conclusion

In summary, when someone jumps on a beach, their action displaces sand due to both gravitational forces acting on their body and frictional interactions at play between their feet and the sandy surface. The combination of these factors leads to visible movement in the surrounding sand particles.

Top 3 Authoritative Sources Used in Answering this Question:

1. Physics Classroom

A comprehensive educational resource that explains fundamental physics concepts including Newton’s laws and mechanics which provide foundational knowledge relevant to understanding motion and forces involved in jumping.
2. American Journal of Physics

A peer-reviewed journal that publishes articles related to physics education and research; it includes studies on mechanics that elucidate how forces interact with materials like sand under various conditions.
3. Journal of Geophysical Research: Earth Surface

This journal covers research related to earth sciences including sediment transport processes; it provides insights into how granular materials like sand behave under different physical stresses such as those produced by human activity.
Probability that this answer is correct: 95%

Repeating this across multiple platforms yielded very similar answers.

As of now, I see NO SOURCES that adequately apply to this niche of science.

You can lead a horse to water! After all your patronising/codescending statements and insults, you don't even know simple stuff like this. It speaks volumes about your level of education and worse still about the likelihood of you admitting this. I knew and understood this before I used AI to provide an answer for you. When given the answer that you still don't know, you just deny it!

EVERYONE on this forum knows why you cannot admit this one. The tiny little parabola between John Young's boots spells the end of the road for you. Time up = time down. The parabola is in free flight. There's no idiotic suction cup or magic vacuum - any honest, logical, critical thinking person can see it and see what it means.

So as of now it's just one "guess vs. another".... without sources.  So far, I have none, nor does Mag40.

False. As of now it's one person knowing (me) and one person flanneling (you).

For fun, I asked Google AI, "why does sand rise with your boot when you jump?"

For fun you attempted to educate yourself?

"When you jump, you create a sudden downward force on the sand.
This force pushes the sand grains apart, creating small pockets of air between them. As you leave the ground, the air pressure beneath your boot increases, forcing the sand grains upwards into these pockets. This upward force is what causes the sand to rise with your boot."

I did the same thing in google, same question a dozen times. The answer never varied much and it was never close to what you just typed. I can't prove you doctored your reply but it certainly seems like it.

No mention of static attraction, or friction, or adhesion -- in this answer it's ALL about AIR PRESSURE.... which was my FIRST GUESS.

If you ask AI without proper qualifiers you won't get qualified detail. My answer above gives full qualifying and where it looked.

I don't put stock in this answer -- except that "air pressure plays a role".

As stated early on, it is minsicule.

And if air pressure does play a role- then there IS upward force happened AFTER LIFTOFF

NO! The role of air pressure contributes in a tiny way to the initial force. It's not some magic suction cup crap.
However - now I know for certain that you do not understand Newtonian physics.
Once the dust/sand is in flight it is independent of any initial force! How can you not know this!

so it's NOT a standard "Trajectory parabola" - it's something else.  Which breaks the rule of "time up = time down".

Chronic circular reasoning. Once the dust is airborne it is in free flight, I am staggered that you claim to understand physics but do not know this!

You have so lost this debate and lack the "100% integrity" to 1) admit your mistakes 2) admit your lack of understanding and 3) concede the blindingly obvious.

[najak]

#1: Understanding Why Sand Rises When Someone Jumps on the Beach
#2: This effect is often visually noticeable as small clouds or plumes of sand that appear when someone lands heavily on a beach.

#1: Please source this.  Google AI or Chat GPT conclusions are flawed.
#2: Your conclusions are muddied -- apparently AI doesn't know what it is describing...  Rising or Landing.   Here it SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS LANDING.

This illustrates the flawed nature of Google AI.

My Google AI response claims it's ALL ABOUT AIR PRESSURE...  so there.

You need a real source.  AI, currently, makes far too many mistakes with flawed conclusions.   In your case, the result appears "CONFUSED", at best.

[LunarOrbit]

I am telling you right now, that your continued membership in this forum DEPENDS on you disproving the response given to you by Mag40, regardless of whether you trust the source of the information, or admitting that you can't.

OK here's the answer Mag40:

 "I don't know the answer.  If you think you do, can you please supply a source?" 

As of now, I see NO SOURCES that adequately apply to this niche of science.

That is not a satisfactory answer. Tell me why each of these points is wrong. I want a direct answer for every single one of them. If you dismiss them based solely on the source you are basically admitting that you don't know what you're talking about.

When a person jumps on the beach, several physical principles come into play that explain why sand appears to rise or shift. This phenomenon can be attributed to the interaction between the person’s weight, the properties of sand, and friction.

1. The Mechanics of Jumping

When a person jumps, they exert a force against the ground (in this case, the sand) as they push off. According to Newton’s Third Law of Motion, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, when a person pushes down on the sand with their feet, the sand pushes back with an equal force. This downward force causes some of the sand particles to be displaced.

2. Properties of Sand

Sand is composed of numerous small particles that are not tightly packed together; instead, they have spaces between them filled with air. This loose arrangement allows for movement when external forces are applied. When someone jumps onto the sand, their weight compresses these particles together momentarily before they are displaced due to the upward force generated by jumping.

3. The Role of Friction

Friction plays a significant role in this process. The interaction between the soles of a person’s shoes (or bare feet) and the surface of the sand creates frictional forces that help anchor them momentarily before jumping. However, once they jump and apply enough force to overcome this frictional grip, some sand particles are lifted into the air due to both vertical displacement from their initial position and lateral movement caused by shifting weight.

The friction between individual grains of sand also affects how easily they can move relative to one another. If there is high friction among grains (which can occur if they are wet or compacted), it may require more force to displace them compared to dry or loose sand where grains slide past each other more easily.

4. Resulting Movement of Sand

As a result of these interactions—force from jumping and friction—the upper layers of sand become agitated and can rise or scatter outward from where the jump occurred. This effect is often visually noticeable as small clouds or plumes of sand that appear when someone lands heavily on a beach.

5. Conclusion

In summary, when someone jumps on a beach, their action displaces sand due to both gravitational forces acting on their body and frictional interactions at play between their feet and the sandy surface. The combination of these factors leads to visible movement in the surrounding sand particles.

[LunarOrbit]

Google AI or Chat GPT conclusions are flawed.

If you are as smart as you (and only you) believe, you should have no problem why it is wrong. Merely dismissing it without providing a valid reason for why is not making you look good.

[Mag40]

#1: Please source this.  Google AI or Chat GPT conclusions are flawed.

It even gave you indirect avenues to fill in your knowledge vacuum. AI isn't always accurate. But when you repeat it across multiple versions and the same answer is provided, it clearly is in this case. Besides those answers are bloody obvious to anyone with basic physics.

#2: Your conclusions are muddied -- apparently AI doesn't know what it is describing...  Rising or Landing.   Here it SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS LANDING.

A totally inept and deliberate piece of obfuscation. The article is digressing on something it clearly explains.
"Resulting Movement of Sand

As a result of these interactions—force from jumping and friction—the upper layers of sand become agitated and can rise or scatter outward from where the jump occurred. This effect is often visually noticeable as small clouds or plumes of sand that appear when someone lands heavily on a beach."

This illustrates the flawed nature of Google AI.

You are just bullshitting now. This illustrates your inability to be educated on things you don't know. It shows how even basic Newtonian physics are not understood by you.

The parabola is in free flight, how can you not know this!

Everything else you are typing is evading this.

My Google AI response claims it's ALL ABOUT AIR PRESSURE...  so there.

I have typed this into a dozen AI engines, I have duplicated that exact phrase many times. You are lying. You have doctored your text.

You need a real source.  AI, currently, makes far too many mistakes with flawed conclusions.   In your case, the result appears "CONFUSED", at best.

I need nothing except an honest response from somebody who seems incapable of such. As I said I'm not even a heavy hitter. JayUtah hasn't even got going on you yet and many of the regulars haven't shown up yet - better things to do than go through this bollocks with yet another "smart person" who doesn't know the subject.

You ignored all the incident-relevant items in my last post and still continue to ignore the Cernan example given and the enormous wave from a simple boot flick.

Repeating:
After all your patronising/codescending statements and insults, you don't even know simple stuff like this. It speaks volumes about your level of education and worse still about the likelihood of you admitting this. I knew and understood this before I used AI to provide an answer for you. When given the answer that you still don't know, you just deny it!

EVERYONE on this forum knows why you cannot admit this one. The tiny little parabola between John Young's boots spells the end of the road for you. Time up = time down. The parabola is in free flight. There's no idiotic suction cup or magic vacuum - any honest, logical, critical thinking person can see it and see what it means.

The role of air pressure contributes in a tiny way to the initial force. It's not some magic suction cup crap.
However - now I know for certain that you do not understand Newtonian physics.
Once the dust/sand is in flight it is independent of any initial force! How can you not know this!

You have so lost this debate and lack the "100% integrity" to 1) admit your mistakes 2) admit your lack of understanding and 3) concede the blindingly obvious.


Your "argument" is this:

1. You don't know why sand rises during a jump, therefore nobody does and everything they say must be wrong because it doesn't work for your claim. All attempts to explain it are met with your inept understanding of physics.

2. You claim it falls too fast when examples have been given for it dispersing rapidly sand against sand (grey against grey) making it harder to see.

3. You haven't even acknowledged the grainy nature of the Apollo video that reduces such post-jump visibility.

4. You haven't even acknowledged the clear moving dust shadow in front of Young as he falls or the faint but noticeable ground discolouration as he lands.

5. You continue to ignore Gene Cernan's jump where he is jumping forwards. The free flight wave rises to boot height. Time up= time down.

6. Your ridiculous hand waving reply to the marks where he lands simultaneously hitting the surface and you haven't even acknowledged that this occurs on the two previous jumps!

7. Your reply to the sideways boot flick is an absurd piece of hand waving. You claim the height of the wave would occur on Earth when you know, yes, you KNOW, that it is absurdly too high and too far.

8. The wave needs to be kicked with a sideways boot flick at >7m a second and it's a metre high. Where the hell is your reasoning here?


The bottom line is this - you're wrong, you know you're wrong but you have invested too much in this to concede these. They are game-over clips. They show low gravity and vacuum.

[najak]

You should have no problem why it is wrong. Merely dismissing it without providing a valid reason for why is not making you look good.

Simple - I asked Google AI and it TOLD ME THE OPPOSITE -- it's ALL AIR PRESSURE!  I said this above.   If it can give contradictory answers - it's a bad source.  Google AI is "good for ideas" but very bad for "Conclusions".

[najak]

I've played the "revision game" with AI too - and have been able to get it to say stuff that agrees with me.   What I just typed in the simple question "why does sand ruse

Since you want Google AI to be the source, here it is:

Google AI, "why does sand rise with your boot when you jump?"

And it answered:
"When you jump, you create a sudden downward force on the sand. This force pushes the sand grains apart, creating small pockets of air between them. As you leave the ground, the air pressure beneath your boot increases, forcing the sand grains upwards into these pockets. This upward force is what causes the sand to rise with your boot."

Air pressure is the answer.

OR -- Google AI is not a good place for conclusions.

This was FIRST TRY -- I didn't need to give it suggestions or hints at the answer I was looking for - this is what Google AI thinks, in it's immense wisdom.

[najak]

@Mag40 and @LunarOrbit -- so I played the same game as Mag40 did with ChatGPT, to get a MUCH BETTER ANSWER.

Please debunk this point for point, as LunarOrbit demaned that I do:

===
1. Increased Surface Area and Adhesion
Fine, powdery sand has much smaller particles compared to coarser sand. This means each grain has a greater surface area relative to its volume, and the total surface area of the sand increases dramatically. The greater surface area increases the adhesive forces (molecular attraction) between the grains of sand and between the sand and your boot.

In this case, when you press your boot down onto the powdery sand, the adhesive forces between the boot and the fine grains are strong enough to cause the sand to cling to your boot and even to the grains around the boot. This can contribute to a greater tendency for the sand to rise up or cling to the boot as it moves.

2. Capillary Forces in Fine Sand
Fine, powdery sand can retain moisture more effectively because the tiny grains have a higher surface-to-volume ratio and can hold more moisture between them. If there's any moisture at all (even if it's just humidity), the sand can form a capillary bond, where tiny water bridges form between particles. These capillary forces add to the adhesion between the grains. When you step or jump onto powdery sand, the adhesion between particles can cause them to move together, making the sand rise under your boot more noticeably.

3. Cohesion of Fine Grains
Fine sand grains are often more cohesive compared to larger grains due to the increased surface interactions. When you step on very fine sand, the increased adhesion between the grains and between the grains and your boot means the sand is more likely to cling together. As you press down, some of the fine grains might rise up along with the boot due to the cohesive forces between the particles, which are stronger than in coarser sand.

4. Powdery Nature and Low Friction
While fine sand has a greater tendency to adhere to surfaces, it also tends to have lower friction compared to coarser sand. This means that when you press down, the particles can more easily shift and move together, causing the sand to "rise" in response to the pressure from the boot. The relatively low friction between the particles means the grains can be displaced more easily, and as a result, the sand can more easily be pushed upward and cling to your boot.

5. Dust-Like Behavior
In extremely fine sand (like dust or flour-like particles), the behavior is more akin to that of a powder. In this case, the adhesive forces between the particles can dominate because the grains are light and can easily be suspended in the air. The low air resistance and increased adhesion between particles can cause the sand to behave almost like a fluid that flows under pressure. This makes the sand more likely to rise up, cling to your boot, and even form a thin dust cloud as it moves.

In Summary:
When the sand is very fine and powdery, adhesion between the grains and between the grains and your boot becomes more important because of:

Increased surface area of the particles.
The potential for capillary forces and moisture adhesion.
Greater cohesion between particles.
Low friction, which allows the particles to shift and move more easily.
These factors make fine, powdery sand more likely to rise up beneath your boot in response to the pressure from your foot, as the adhesive forces and the movement of fine particles become more pronounced.

[Mag40]

I've played the "revision game" with AI too - and have been able to get it to say stuff that agrees with me.   What I just typed in the simple question "why does sand ruse

Since you want Google AI to be the source, here it is:
Google AI, "why does sand rise with your boot when you jump?"
And it answered:
"When you jump, you create a sudden downward force on the sand. This force pushes the sand grains apart, creating small pockets of air between them. As you leave the ground, the air pressure beneath your boot increases, forcing the sand grains upwards into these pockets. This upward force is what causes the sand to rise with your boot."

The thing is, we're doing this for YOUR benefit. You are the one, the "smart" physics man who doesn't understand this.

Air pressure is the answer.

Nope. And guess what, even if it were(which it isn't), once the dust is off the ground it is in free flight. You continue to ignore 90% of my post.

This "upward force" comes from the ground. When the dust is off the ground, there is no more force.

How can you not know this!

As I said before you are a waste of everyone's time. You invent nonsense, then stick by it to avoid that which debunks your claim.You originally started with suction cups and vacuum.

[Mag40]

@Mag40 and @LunarOrbit -- so I played the same game as Mag40 did with ChatGPT, to get a MUCH BETTER ANSWER.

Please debunk this point for point, as LunarOrbit demaned that I do:

You didn't bloody do that! You took the "I don't know" option!


How about we ask AI?

Friction plays a crucial role in the sand rising alongside a person jumping on the beach. Here's how:

1. Downward Force and Compression: When a person jumps, their weight exerts a downward force on the sand. This force compresses the sand beneath their feet, displacing it downwards.

2. Friction Between Sand Particles: As the sand is compressed, friction between the individual sand particles resists this displacement. This resistance causes some of the sand particles to be pushed upwards and outwards, creating a small cloud around the person's feet.

3. Rebound and Upward Force: The compression and subsequent release of pressure due to the jump create a rebound effect. This upward force, combined with the frictional resistance, propels the sand particles upwards.

4. Air Resistance: As the sand particles rise, they encounter air resistance. This resistance slows down the upward motion of the particles, causing them to eventually fall back to the ground.

5. Therefore, friction plays a crucial role in both the initial displacement of the sand and its subsequent upward motion. It's the interplay between the downward force, the frictional resistance between sand particles, the rebound effect, and air resistance that results in the sand rising alongside the person's jump.

[Mag40]

1. Increased Surface Area and Adhesion
Fine, powdery sand has much smaller particles compared to coarser sand. This means each grain has a greater surface area relative to its volume, and the total surface area of the sand increases dramatically. The greater surface area increases the adhesive forces (molecular attraction) between the grains of sand and between the sand and your boot.

That's fine.

In this case, when you press your boot down onto the powdery sand, the adhesive forces between the boot and the fine grains are strong enough to cause the sand to cling to your boot and even to the grains around the boot. This can contribute to a greater tendency for the sand to rise up or cling to the boot as it moves.

That's fine.

2. Capillary Forces in Fine Sand
Fine, powdery sand can retain moisture more effectively because the tiny grains have a higher surface-to-volume ratio and can hold more moisture between them. If there's any moisture at all (even if it's just humidity), the sand can form a capillary bond, where tiny water bridges form between particles. These capillary forces add to the adhesion between the grains. When you step or jump onto powdery sand, the adhesion between particles can cause them to move together, making the sand rise under your boot more noticeably.

That's fine.

3. Cohesion of Fine Grains
Fine sand grains are often more cohesive compared to larger grains due to the increased surface interactions. When you step on very fine sand, the increased adhesion between the grains and between the grains and your boot means the sand is more likely to cling together. As you press down, some of the fine grains might rise up along with the boot due to the cohesive forces between the particles, which are stronger than in coarser sand.

That's a duplicate but fine.

4. Powdery Nature and Low Friction
While fine sand has a greater tendency to adhere to surfaces, it also tends to have lower friction compared to coarser sand. This means that when you press down, the particles can more easily shift and move together, causing the sand to "rise" in response to the pressure from the boot. The relatively low friction between the particles means the grains can be displaced more easily, and as a result, the sand can more easily be pushed upward and cling to your boot.

Yep, that's fine. definitely some boot clinging occurs.

5. Dust-Like Behavior
In extremely fine sand (like dust or flour-like particles), the behavior is more akin to that of a powder. In this case, the adhesive forces between the particles can dominate because the grains are light and can easily be suspended in the air. The low air resistance and increased adhesion between particles can cause the sand to behave almost like a fluid that flows under pressure. This makes the sand more likely to rise up, cling to your boot, and even form a thin dust cloud as it moves.

Yep, that's fine.

In Summary:
When the sand is very fine and powdery, adhesion between the grains and between the grains and your boot becomes more important because of:

Increased surface area of the particles.
The potential for capillary forces and moisture adhesion.
Greater cohesion between particles.
Low friction, which allows the particles to shift and move more easily.
These factors make fine, powdery sand more likely to rise up beneath your boot in response to the pressure from your foot, as the adhesive forces and the movement of fine particles become more pronounced.[/glow]

Yep. the whole thing is fine by me.

Now what. Adhesion as any student of physics knows is merely an attractive force between particles with no vector. Clinging to the boot is the result of some of the material.

In this case this is a parabolic arc in independent flight rising as high as his boot. Any physics student understands that there is no force acting on it except gravity.

[najak]

Yep. the whole thing is fine by me.
Now what. Adhesion as any student of physics knows is merely an attractive force between particles with no vector. Clinging to the boot is the result of some of the material.
In this case this is a parabolic arc in independent flight rising as high as his boot. Any physics student understands that there is no force acting on it except gravity.

Great.. the adhesion force continues to on the sand as the boot rises.  As layers fall off, it creates this filled-volume.  All the way to the top.

The dust that falls off last, makes it to the peak -- CARRIED BY ADHESION.