Author Topic: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity  (Read 3341 times)

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2024, 07:46:59 AM »
In my hypothesis, the guide wire was simply attached some where to create the effect of Tracking.   No one was at the other end.
What the hell are you even talking about? It looks like a mechanism to hold it in place broke.

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For Apollogist theory and mine - there was a loosely wobbling antenna that "stiffened up". 
Bollocks! It looks like it became loose of one part holding it and simply oscillated back and forth against something else also holding it.
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Neither of us knows why it stiffened up.
And bollocks again. It simply ran out of inertia.
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but stiff it became.  Which explains why it became motionless after that.
An exercise in hyperbole to avoid the obvious. Something gave way under some tension. It was still held in place by something else. It oscillates back and forth - lessening inertia.

At no stage does anything related to the moving LM correlate to its movement. Once it stops moving, obviously not connected to gravity, it stops completely.

That is what the visual record shows and your admission of this will not be forthcoming because we have an ascent stage with the Moon behind it, approaching the CSM for final docking.

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The motion prior to stiffening, emulated a pendulum motion -- reversing directions after deceleration, and before reaching the hinge limits.
It rocked back and forth, impacting first one extremity then the other. Pendulums move for far longer than what we are seeing! It is clearly an impact-declining process.

Offline Miss Vocalcord

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2024, 08:12:20 AM »
#1: The other motions we witness from this motor are expected --relatively slow and stiff movements, consistent with a servo-motor.  High fidelity steady motion.
Incorrect. It has been noted in Apollo 16 there were also problems with the steerable S-Band antenna oscillating.

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It is not required for me to know the "how did they fake this", to make an observation that "this pendulum behavior makes no sense without gravity."[/b]
You have been giving more then one explanation as of how this behaviour could happen, but you simply ignore them.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2024, 09:12:34 AM »
You have been giving more then one explanation as of how this behaviour could happen, but you simply ignore them.
There are 5 key points to be addressed.  I've PASTED into the doc responses from 2.  Would you like to posit your own ideas too?  You should collectively get together and decide what the best response is to each of these... and I'll include it into the document.  I want to post the VERY BEST REFUTATIONS YOU GOT... so have at it.  I'm not ignoring...  Give me your best.

Apollo 16 "Oscilliations of antenna" -- got a link?   

One thing we do know is Apollo 12 did NOT have any reported issues at all with this antenna, nor any transcript to acknowledge it.  I think they were just hoping no one noticed -- and THEY WERE RIGHT-- nobody noticed or cared about these mistakes.

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #108 on: December 05, 2024, 09:29:11 AM »
There are 5 key points to be addressed.
Repeating your lie. Addressed by more than one user and they are not key points. They are just your attempts to divert from the dish stopping completely - way faster than a pendulum would and subsequently staying stopped. Clearly to an honest and competent physicist, not in gravity.

Those are the key points and your squirming diversion won't alter that.

Offline Miss Vocalcord

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2024, 09:57:24 AM »
Apollo 16 "Oscilliations of antenna" -- got a link?   
096:18:53 Duke (LM comm): Okay, look up over my - our right side and look at that antenna, the - the steerable, and see how it - it's moving. I'm going to move it in pitch, then in yaw. Over.
096:19:05 Mattingly: Okay, on your right side. Okay: I got it, and it's moving in - It looks like a combination now. It's moving though. It's oscillating at this time.
096:19:17 Duke (LM): Okay, it should be stable
096:19:XX Mattingly: Now it's steady.
https://www.nasa.gov/history/afj/ap16fj/15_Day5_pt3.html

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I think they were just hoping no one noticed -- and THEY WERE RIGHT-- nobody noticed or cared about these mistakes.
Incorrect, previously you claimed they must have altered the audio, it would have been very easy to insert it into the flight journals too.

But now you already have to add an additional wire, two stopping mechanisms and an audio edit to your story; it keeps adding up.

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #110 on: December 05, 2024, 12:07:33 PM »
If you see a VIDEO of a man chopping a woman in half, then just squeezes her back together...  you are allowed to say "I don't believe that this footage is genuine" even if you cannot prove HOW he actually pulled off this illusion.   The evidence of him doing something IMPOSSIBLE can justify your disbelief.
Please stop with the tortured analogy. You're comparing an illusion, that absolutely every viewer know is an illusion, with a decade long program, employing hundreds of thousands of people, with extensive documentation and evidence, that is understood to be authentic by nearly everyone for over 5 decades.

At best, this analogy is just a terrible representation of the situation, and at worst and more likely, is a deliberate attempt to superimpose your foregone conclusion that Apollo is fake by presenting it as nothing more than a magic trick in your analogy. Either way, stop. If you are unwilling or unable to use a valid analogy then don't use one at all.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #111 on: December 05, 2024, 08:51:44 PM »
096:18:53 Duke (LM comm): Okay, look up over my - our right side and look at that antenna, the - the steerable, and see how it - it's moving. I'm going to move it in pitch, then in yaw. Over.
096:19:05 Mattingly: Okay, on your right side. Okay: I got it, and it's moving in - It looks like a combination now. It's moving though. It's oscillating at this time.
096:19:17 Duke (LM): Okay, it should be stable
096:19:XX Mattingly: Now it's steady.
https://www.nasa.gov/history/afj/ap16fj/15_Day5_pt3.html
Incorrect, previously you claimed they must have altered the audio, it would have been very easy to insert it into the flight journals too.
Thanks for the link.  Do you know where the video footage is of this excerpt?

Note that they are talking about it for over 14 seconds... so it was oscillating beforehand before he first spoke on it.  Compare this to the 3 second "flung oscillation" of the Apollo 12.... It was very dramatic at the beginning, but settled out like a pendulum -- in about 3 seconds total.   Not 20 seconds.

So these don't seem to correlate at all.   Do you agree?

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #112 on: December 05, 2024, 09:06:08 PM »
At best, this analogy is just a terrible representation of the situation, and at worst and more likely, is a deliberate attempt to superimpose your foregone conclusion that Apollo is fake by presenting it as nothing more than a magic trick in your analogy. Either way, stop. If you are unwilling or unable to use a valid analogy then don't use one at all.
You make a good point.  I'll think of a better analogy, as the heart surgeon one you provided is also not good.
1. It implies he's doing something "truly useful to humankind" (healing someone) - vs. a stunt that doesn't help anyone directly.
2. It doesn't include this doctor spending $Billions in tax payer money to do this "stunt" that serves no one, while needs here on earth are neglected.
3. It needs to be Televised from a location with only 3 live witnesses, all of which are ex-military men.
4. It needs to be tied to a "Cold War / Fear" where success helps to address/alleviate this fear/competition.
5. After they are done, they destroy the most hard to fake evidence, such as the most of the medical research papers that would be essential for someone to repeat the task.
6. The guys who did this stunt initially all resign, and one won't even celebrate it at established events.
7. The guy who headed up this whole program, resigns just a few months before they finally succeed.
8. The guy who blows the whistle on "what is really happening" gets killed 6 days later, late at night, by a one-car train... and his 500-page report goes missing.
9. After the stunt is completed, Nixon sells it off like a New World Religion -- the focal point for "World Peace and Unity"... so anyone who opposes it is also pooping on World Peace and Unity, capped off by a friendly Russian alliance by May 1972.  Lots of optimism flowing around - all hinged on Apollo's claim.

Something like this would be a better analogy.

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #113 on: December 05, 2024, 10:32:36 PM »
You make a good point.  I'll think of a better analogy, as the heart surgeon one you provided is also not good.
1. It implies he's doing something "truly useful to humankind" (healing someone) - vs. a stunt that doesn't help anyone directly.
2. It doesn't include this doctor spending $Billions in tax payer money to do this "stunt" that serves no one, while needs here on earth are neglected.
3. It needs to be Televised from a location with only 3 live witnesses, all of which are ex-military men.
4. It needs to be tied to a "Cold War / Fear" where success helps to address/alleviate this fear/competition.
5. After they are done, they destroy the most hard to fake evidence, such as the most of the medical research papers that would be essential for someone to repeat the task.
6. The guys who did this stunt initially all resign, and one won't even celebrate it at established events.
7. The guy who headed up this whole program, resigns just a few months before they finally succeed.
8. The guy who blows the whistle on "what is really happening" gets killed 6 days later, late at night, by a one-car train... and his 500-page report goes missing.
9. After the stunt is completed, Nixon sells it off like a New World Religion -- the focal point for "World Peace and Unity"... so anyone who opposes it is also pooping on World Peace and Unity, capped off by a friendly Russian alliance by May 1972.  Lots of optimism flowing around - all hinged on Apollo's claim.

Something like this would be a better analogy.

1 - 'Boots' on the moon was most definitely a massive middle finer to the then Soviet USSR. Basic exploration could be achieved via unmanned craft, HOWEVER, boots on the moon allow for a much larger range of activities, since humans already come with built in tools that can be adapted to handle multiple tasks, as well as the ability to make decisions in the moment. A lander can only perform the specific tasks that are built into it.

2 - I've never understood this argument. Are you not aware that governments are capable of supporting multiple programs at the same time? Exploration is what man has always excelled at. What purpose was there in climbing Everest? What purpose is there in going to the bottom of the ocean? We explore, we learn, and expand our knowledge base.

3 - The live television decision was last minute, regarding the Apollo 11 landing. As far as tasks for the lunar surface, live video served no real purpose beyond publicity. Extended missions could later take advantage of live video by having ground based experts involved in decisions, but for Apollo 11s 2.5 hour EVA, the TV was public relations.

4 - It didn't "need" to be, but it did provide a good driver. Most of mas quickest achievements quite often happen when there is an 'enemy' to beat. This does sometimes also come with the costs of inadequate testing to meet timelines that have been determined by politicians and not qualified people.

5 - *sigh* All the important data is around, in various reports and research items, as well as some hard copies. BUT, today, telemetry data is nothing more than a curiosity, given the changes in spacecraft designs since. Armstrong's and Aldrin's heartrate at the time of the first EVA is useless to us today, but I have a scanned copy. Oh, and there's lots of medical data in the Apollo BioMedical reports, almost as if that was their whole purpose.

6 - They didn't all resign, some remained with NASA, some transferred back to military roles, and some retired altogether.... so what? And I take it you are referring to Armstrong? Armstrong made a lot of public appearances post Apollo, however he was, and was always known as, a quite and reserved person. Find the photo of the Apollo astronauts, you will find Armstrong, arguably the most famous of them all, standing at the back, with Buzz out front, as was his personality.

7 - Webb stood down prior to Apollo 8 as Johnson had announced he wasn't running for re-election. Webb had close ties with Johnson, and would have seen this as a clean transition for the next administration. If the next president wanted Webb, who knows what might have been. In the end, though, Webb was far to above Apollo to be considered the 'head' of the program, I'd drop that title on George Mueller, who had far greater control over the program than Webb did.

8 - Baron's not the great whistleblower you seem to think he is. Even the one person he named in the Apollo 1 committee contradicted and denied his claims. His original report was given, looked over, and there were several areas in which they agreed with his report. The 500 page report, based on all available evidence, was taken up by the committee as evidence but was not published as part of the public record due to its size, not an uncommon occurrence. But maybe if he'd been paying attention, or wasn't trying to beat the engine, he, his wife, and one of his step-daughters (one survived, did you know that?) may still be alive (or at least have died a natural death).

9 - Apollo was effectively cancelled in 1969, with funding being decreased before then. From Nixon's point of view, it wasn't his achievement, he was just the person there when it happened; he didn't start the program, he didn't fight for it, rather the opposite, he pushed to cancel it (hence the lack of Apollo's 18 through 20). That he saw the political capital in Apollo is plain to see, and he milked it for all he could. Perhaps if it was Nixon's program, we may have received more of the Apollo Applications program, rather than being left with the cut-down Skylab program being the only survivor (and still hard fought for, I have copies of some of the correspondence in relation to NASA's survival after Apollo).

Whelp, turns out your analogies are weak again.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2024, 12:28:07 AM »
Whelp, turns out your analogies are weak again.
This analogy was just to replace the less pertinent "heart transplant" analogy suggested earlier.   This was a stunt for which they had to justify all that spending which was under IMMENSE pressure for cancellation, because pre-fiat money, money was harder to come.  Nowadays it's just "more debt" -- back then, when money was spent on one thing, it was pulled from another budget.  So while people were in poverty, schools/roads in shambles -- we decided to spend money on Apollo instead.   So how much worse would it have been if we simply said "sorry we wasted all of your money and failed at our core mission."

So in THIS context, there was more "motive" for the Lie.  And the "Means" by tying it to DoD/Cold-War to justify the deception - making it Armstrong's Patriotic duty to keep the National secret, and not be a traitor by revealing it.

THIS is the context where I am finding a fair amount of "Unexplainable Broken Physics"...   situations for which no comprehensive viable theory exists to explain it.  So this needs to be the analogy to match it.

Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2024, 02:04:18 AM »
THIS is the context where I am finding a fair amount of "Unexplainable Broken Physics"...   situations for which no comprehensive viable theory exists to explain it.  So this needs to be the analogy to match it.

Except you expect over simplified answers to complex situations, refuse to engage when situations and process' are attempted to stepped through with you (a pity, I was finding it interesting and thought there would be great potential for learning something new), have repeatedly stated in pretty much every thread about the multiple items you haven't looked at, yet still manage to cling to your belief that "no comprehensive viable theory exists to explain it", when you simply do not have all the details to make such a claim. It's not that you can't see the forest for the trees, you haven't left the house yet.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2024, 02:43:12 AM »
...refuse to engage when situations and process' are attempted to stepped through with you (a pity, I was finding it interesting and thought there would be great potential for learning something new)
Great!  Please walk this process with him, so the can "teach you" -- while showing the whole world, that for the first time ever, the "Lunar Launch Too Fast" can be Debunked.

But he won't -- because he can't.  Use your head, you are smarter than this.  You are behaving like a Fundamentalist holding to the infallibility of the Bible - no.matter.what.

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2024, 08:18:07 AM »
So while people were in poverty, schools/roads in shambles -- we decided to spend money on Apollo instead. 
This is also an overused fallacious argument. Do you think they just shot billions of dollars in cash into space? Where do you think the money spent on Apollo actually went? A lot of us in the real world maintain that much of it was spent on the people working in the hundreds of thousands of jobs that actually produced the Apollo results. And this doesn't just mean a paycheck for the guys sitting in Mission Control, it's everyone from the engineers designing all of the hardware, the people building everything from all of the contracted companies, the people sewing spacesuits in Massachusetts, right down to the people fabricating rivets and bolts. It was a massive public works project, with enormous amounts of money being invested in America and spent on Americans, and this doesn't include any of the economic stimulus of all of the local commerce that would have sprung up to support all of the hubs of industry all over the country that were elevated due to Apollo. And we haven't touched on the technological developments that were a direct result of the investment of this government spending that continued to employ many of these people long after Apollo was cancelled.

This is just another example of your simplistic, surface level thinking, and you presenting other people's unvetted ideas as something true. Each component of your hoax hypothesis is essentially just an example of the "fake rock from Denmark". At least in that single instance, you admitted you didn't know what you were talking about.

 
Great!  Please walk this process with him, so the can "teach you" -- while showing the whole world, that for the first time ever, the "Lunar Launch Too Fast" can be Debunked.

But he won't -- because he can't.  Use your head, you are smarter than this.  You are behaving like a Fundamentalist holding to the infallibility of the Bible - no.matter.what.
You have nothing to lose by going through the process the way Jay wants, and if you're right, everything to gain. So put your money where your mouth is for a change and humor him. Let's see what happens when you actually step to the plate.

Offline Miss Vocalcord

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2024, 02:14:32 PM »
So these don't seem to correlate at all.   Do you agree?
No not at all, you claimed earlier all the motor movements were as "expected"; now it has been pointed out this was not at all the case you want the exact same movement to be shown; talking about moving goalposts.

In the end the only argument you are left with in this thread is that it isn't really mentioned in the flight journals, that's it.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Apollo 12 Lunar Rendezvous, Dish Falls with Gravity
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2024, 12:55:26 AM »
You have nothing to lose by going through the process the way Jay wants, and if you're right, everything to gain. So put your money where your mouth is for a change and humor him. Let's see what happens when you actually step to the plate.
There's a reason he won't do this with you.  It's NOT his plan to finish a proof, but to stall, divert, and claim he's discrediting me as incompetent.

He won't show this proof, because he CAN'T - which is why such a DEBUNK still doesn't exist.

The Apollogy that "We've debunked ALL MLH claims" is a Lie.  But Apollogists claim they are honest.  So why Lie?