2012 maya calendar

[DataCable]

Terence McKenna, independently and without knowledge of the Mayan Prophecy had calculated the end date to be December 21, 2012.

Harold Camping "calculated" it to be October 21, 2011.

[Echnaton]

When a scholar directs his studies to spiritual matters, lacking the spiritual experience, they, can only study the mundane.

Know one can really understand the spiritual inclinations of the Mayan, or any other past culture, because we cannot experience what they experience.  The only way to learn about the spiritual aspects of their culture is to understand the context of their lives through scholarship.  If we do otherwise we are merely reading our own inclinations into another culture.  We do a disservice to ourselves and to an ancient culture to believe that we are sharing and understanding their particular cultural expression when we eschew the knowledge that can be gained through the material remains of the society. 

This issue highlights the real problem with all of our conversations.  You value personal revelation above all else, while we value proven methods of objective understanding.  Revelation may illuminate the personal meaning of your experiences, as it does to many, but it is a poor guide to the material world in which we live.

[twik]

Ironically, profmunkin's vision of what "scholars" do is about 180 degrees from the reality. CTs seem to believe that research is done by spending your days in dusty libraries, studying what is already known.

Current researchers on the ancient Maya spend their days actually working with the Maya. The deciphering of the Maya writing system required workers who knew the Maya, knew their languages, and knew how they thought. Read a work by a REAL Maya researcher, such as Linda Schele, and see just how far these workers have moved from the ivory tower.

To use profmunkin's bicycle analogy, the Maya researchers studied bicycles until they understood their principles, went out and built bicycles, and are riding them around as we speak. The New Agers tell each other stories of how if we only understood the spiritual essence of bicycles, we could fly on them, but since the rest of us are too far "inside the box", we'll never truly understand the Way of the Bicycle.

BTW, profmunkin, if we reach then end of 2012 without a major catastrophe, will you be willing to come on to this forum and admit, "I was wrong"? Or will you claim that there was some invisible catastrophe that can only be detected by those who don't think about things too much?

[profmunkin]

1. Prove his ideas were independent and without knowledge of anyone else's.
2. The Mayans made no prophesies about the end of the world.
3. Terence McKenna took a LOT of mind-altering drugs and his thoughts and behaviour may also have been influenced by his brain cancer.  In other words, anything he said is very suspect.

1) I believe what he said, why would he lie about a trivial matter?  Mckenna is not proposing anything concerning The Mayan Calender, out side of the fact that he was informed that coincidentally Timewave Zero matches up with his end date.  I have not uncovered any evidence that he has lied about anything. Plus what difference does it make in that his Timewave Zero Theory can be verified?
2) OK. But how do you know this?
3) Obvious you do not know Terence Mckenna, consciousness expanding drugs or know that he proposed Timewave Zero Theory long before the brain cancer.  Plus he remained coherent up until his death.

What is suspect is the predisposed prejudice against an idea or concept.
"Timewave Zero theory is a fractal function "
http://www.fractal-timewave.com/

[Chew]

McKenna's original timewave zero date was November, 2012. After he learned about the Mayan baktun rollover he "modified" the end date. His original start date was the bombing of Hiroshima. Which means his revised start date is now marked by... Hershey's inventing a new candy bar?

[twik]

1. Prove his ideas were independent and without knowledge of anyone else's.
2. The Mayans made no prophesies about the end of the world.
3. Terence McKenna took a LOT of mind-altering drugs and his thoughts and behaviour may also have been influenced by his brain cancer.  In other words, anything he said is very suspect.

1) I believe what he said, why would he lie about a trivial matter?  Mckenna is not proposing anything concerning The Mayan Calender, out side of the fact that he was informed that coincidentally Timewave Zero matches up with his end date.  I have not uncovered any evidence that he has lied about anything. Plus what difference does it make in that his Timewave Zero Theory can be verified?
2) OK. But how do you know this?
3) Obvious you do not know Terence Mckenna, consciousness expanding drugs or know that he proposed Timewave Zero Theory long before the brain cancer.  Plus he remained coherent up until his death.

What is suspect is the predisposed prejudice against an idea or concept.
"Timewave Zero theory is a fractal function "
http://www.fractal-timewave.com/

Where has it been verified? And what exactly do you mean by that?

So, you believe that we're all going to die by the end of the year? If you really believe this, what exactly are you doing to prepare? Posting on message boards seems silly - scarcely something that would be on anyone's "bucket list". Arguing about the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy when we only have about six months left of existence is a pretty big waste of time, wouldn't you say?

One would almost have to say that you do not really believe it yourself. Which is why you refer to it as a "trivial matter".

[profmunkin]

Know one can really understand the spiritual inclinations of the Mayan, or any other past culture, because we cannot experience what they experience. 

Can we agree that when we sleep, there is no memory of the experience of sleep?
Can we agree that when we dream, there is memories, all be it sometimes fleeting of the experience?
Can we agree that when we are not sleeping or dreaming, we experience wakefullness?

We could discuss these three states of consciousness and have a common understanding of the nature of each state. We can describe each state or experience of each state as being different then the others, yet each of the three states of being is known to all of us.

So if we were to study dreaming, since we all have the experience we could write based on our experience plus we could recognize other peoples experiences in light of our own. Just as we are not surprised when someone tells us a strange dream, we recognize the nature of dreaming. But if you were a person that has never experienced dreaming, you could not recognize the nature of dream state and judging only by your experience, deny that dream state existed.

There are 7 recognized states of consciousness;
Sleeping state of consciousness
Dreaming state of consciousness
Wakefullness state of consciousness
Transcendental state of consciousness
Cosmic state of consciousness
God state of consciousness
Unity state of consciousness

The mystics tell us that these states of consciousness exist and that each state of being is as different one to another as sleeping is to wakefullness.

If the Mayans left a spiritual sign post, it can be recognized by its nature.
Just as experiencing deeper states of consciousness provides the experience for a person to recognize the nature of the meanings within spiritual texts and sign posts.

[twik]

So, what you're saying is,

"We don't know for sure what the Maya meant, or even if they meant anything at all about 2012, but we 'spiritually aware' people will know it when we see it. It'll be something all mystical and stuff."

Why are you bothering to write this on message boards? Shouldn't you be out building bunkers in your back yard or something, for the coming catastrophe?

[profmunkin]

BTW, profmunkin, if we reach then end of 2012 without a major catastrophe, will you be willing to come on to this forum and admit, "I was wrong"? Or will you claim that there was some invisible catastrophe that can only be detected by those who don't think about things too much?

Are you so stuck in judgment that you can not recognize the fact that I have not voiced any opinion on what 2012 means.

For the record: I said I know almost nothing about the Mayan Calander or it's prophecies
For the record: I don't know what 2012 will bring
For the record: I won't be surprised to celebrate 2013 new year.
For the record: I presented Terence Mckenna "Timewave zero" as supporting evidence that there may be a phenomena we do not understand that coincindentally correlates to Mayan calander as stated.
For the record: Studying Timewave Zero has given me no knowlegde as to what 2012 ultimately means.
For the record: I believe and trust Terence Mckenna and have yet to find a flaw in Timewave Zero Theory. I will even be bold and state he was one of "the greatest minds" of our time.
For the record: I am willing to listen, I am willing to try to understand.

Continiouisly defending your positions just cements your thinking. You become a technician, incapable of new thought.
If you can't open your mind, you will just remain stuck in judgment, thinking thinking thinking you know it all.

Try something new - "Timewave Zero" video or "The Tree of Knowledge" audio

[Andromeda]

1. Prove his ideas were independent and without knowledge of anyone else's.
2. The Mayans made no prophesies about the end of the world.
3. Terence McKenna took a LOT of mind-altering drugs and his thoughts and behaviour may also have been influenced by his brain cancer.  In other words, anything he said is very suspect.

1) I believe what he said, why would he lie about a trivial matter?  Mckenna is not proposing anything concerning The Mayan Calender, out side of the fact that he was informed that coincidentally Timewave Zero matches up with his end date.  I have not uncovered any evidence that he has lied about anything. Plus what difference does it make in that his Timewave Zero Theory can be verified?
2) OK. But how do you know this?
3) Obvious you do not know Terence Mckenna, consciousness expanding drugs or know that he proposed Timewave Zero Theory long before the brain cancer.  Plus he remained coherent up until his death.

What is suspect is the predisposed prejudice against an idea or concept.
"Timewave Zero theory is a fractal function "
http://www.fractal-timewave.com/

1.  Why would anyone lie?  For money or fame, like Nancy Lieder or Zachariah Sitchin.

2.  Read this page: http://www.2012hoax.org/maya-prediction  I am one of the authors of that website.

3.  I know the drugs and brain cancer made him see and experience things which were not real, and that he was quite out of it by the time of his death.

[Echnaton]

The mystics tell us that these states of consciousness exist and that each state of being is as different one to another as sleeping is to wakefullness.

Mystics may tell you that, or many other things.  So what.  What science tells us is that there are various physical states to which we humans experience a similar response.  However the meaning we place on that experience varies widely among cultures.  To simply say the meaning is common, without understating the specific context of the other culture is a fallacy.  You can search for and find all the personal experiences and meaning you want, but when you try to make statements about the material world, you are entering into the realm of science. 

[Echnaton]

If the Mayans left a spiritual sign post, it can be recognized by its nature.

So tell us.  What exactly are the "spiritual sign posts" left by the Mayans and why is the interpretation of them as "signposts" proper, as opposed to all other possible interpretations. 

[profmunkin]

So, what you're saying is,

"We don't know for sure what the Maya meant, or even if they meant anything at all about 2012, but we 'spiritually aware' people will know it when we see it. It'll be something all mystical and stuff."

Why are you bothering to write this on message boards? Shouldn't you be out building bunkers in your back yard or something, for the coming catastrophe?

What I am saying is that civilizations recorded transactions and recorded spiritually significant things. Most likely the Mayan Calender was a spiritual item and if true, must be viewed in the nature of consciousness, it is not mundane and cannot be in its fullness understood from our common perspective.

[profmunkin]

So tell us.  What exactly are the "spiritual sign posts" left by the Mayans and why is the interpretation of them as "signposts" proper, as opposed to all other possible interpretations.

Really - concerning the Mayans - I don't know - 2012 I don't know

Concerning other spiritual texts, you know when you have the experience. It is the only way, other wise it is just an abstract idea, a thought stream. The texts and sign posts instead of being portals to higher states of consciousness become mind structures of which the shackles of religion are made.
Spirituality is an experience, it's dancing in the mystery.

[twik]

Why is a calendar "most likely" a spiritual item?

Look, it's fine to take a spiritual view of things. However, that doesn't allow you to then use that viewpoint as an argument into the mundane. If you're saying that you basically know nothing of the meaning of the end of the bak'tun, but there possibly could be some sort of spiritual significance, that's charming, in a sort of vague way, but it's useless for deciding if we should build bunkers or not.

And it's completely unfalsifiable. When the date passes, as it will, with nothing happening on a cosmic scale, the mystics will just wave an ethereal hand, and explain that the "end of the world" was meant as a spiritual metaphor, and us "mundanes" won't recognize the true revolution that just happened.

profmunkin, put your cards on the table. What do you expect will happen on December 21, 2012? My own prediction is that you will see a lot of New Agers preparing their statements about why we just didn't notice the world ended, but it really did - for special values of "world" and "end".