So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?

[Andromeda]

Show us your 1.63 MJ/kg calculation or source.

See link in post #1.

No.  I will not wade through that claptrap again.

[Heiwa]

Where did you get "P-22KS" and 97 400N?

From NASA - references in my presentation - link in post #1.

[gillianren]

No.  No, no, no.  No, you don't get to send us to a website for information.  You have to present it here.  For the third time, my browser says your website will endanger my computer, and I won't visit anything where I get that warning.  Even if I would, you're here, and you will follow the rules here.  And that includes presenting your argument here.

[Heiwa]

Show us your 1.63 MJ/kg calculation or source.

See link in post #1.

No.  I will not wade through that claptrap again.

But it is the topic we discuss. If you want to participate in the discussion, you have to study the topic under discussion. My mother always told me so.

[Andromeda]

Show us your 1.63 MJ/kg calculation or source.

See link in post #1.

No.  I will not wade through that claptrap again.

But it is the topic we discuss. If you want to participate in the discussion, you have to study the topic under discussion. My mother always told me so.

Please invite your mother here, I am happy to talk to her.

In terms of studying the topic, I have - it's what I did at university at both undergrad and postgrad level.

You do not get to order me about, and you definitely do not get to tell me how to participate in this forum.  That's twice now.  I doubt you'll get a third chance.

[raven]

As more fuel is burned, if thrust is constant, the rate of deceleration will be increased. After all, you are not decelerating a 43,000 pound space craft any more, but one that is the amount of fuel burned lighter.
Imagine someone pushed  you down an aisle in a shopping cart full of you and, say, 100 cans of soup. You could stop yourself by throwing cans of soup toward the destination as, thanks to Newtons' third law, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Assuming you are throwing at a constant speed, every can of soup thrown will decelerate you more than the last as the mass being decelerated, first you and 99 soup cans, than 98, and so on, becomes less and less.
It also sounds like a great way to get thrown out of a store, but that's a different question.

[Heiwa]

No.  No, no, no.  No, you don't get to send us to a website for information.  You have to present it here.  For the third time, my browser says your website will endanger my computer, and I won't visit anything where I get that warning.  Even if I would, you're here, and you will follow the rules here.  And that includes presenting your argument here.

Strange rule. Anyway my ISP is Lycos/Tripod at San Francisco, CA, and it is an excellent ISP always up and running providing an excellent service for $4.95 per month. I am a happy Lycos/Tripod client since >10 years. Evidently I cannot copy my web site on a discussion forum. You'll have to visit it at the ISP. Good luck!

[dwight]

just type the reference and impress us with your skills

[gillianren]

Strange rule. Anyway my ISP is Lycos/Tripod at San Francisco, CA, and it is an excellent ISP always up and running providing an excellent service for $4.95 per month. I am a happy Lycos/Tripod client since >10 years. Evidently I cannot copy my web site on a discussion forum. You'll have to visit it at the ISP. Good luck!

No, it's not a strange rule.  It's an extremely common one, from what I've seen, on any site intending to host discussion.  "Go read my website" isn't discussion.  Discussion would include, say, "Oh, you're right.  I was an idiot about that Walter Cronkite thing.  Clearly, I don't know as much as I think I do."  Or "Thank you for providing all those references.  Instead of being rude, I will look at what you've said and respond to it."  Or any number of things which you have failed to do.

And I don't care who hosts your website.  What I care about is that I have received a warning that it will infect my computer with malware.  Why should I risk opening up my computer to that when you haven't convinced me that anything you have to say is anything I haven't already heard from dozens of other people with made-up credentials and even less understanding of physics than I have?

[Daggerstab]

As others have explained, the SPS on the Apollo CSM uses the AJ10-137 engine with a nominal thrust of 91 kN. Where did you get "P-22KS" and 97 400N?

Jason and I have done some sleuthing.  The only reference we can find to this is the schematic on page 405 in "Stages to Saturn" by Roger E Bilstein*.  Jason has just gone to grab the book, he will be back in a minute.  We suspect an inaccuracy in the text, given that it matches up with nothing else Apollo.



* apart from on Heiwa's own website.

Yep, he has the schematic on his page, with added colors and abusive comments:
http://www.members.tripod.com/heiwaco/rocket.jpg

He probably got it from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Saturn_v_schematic.jpg

They got it from a digitalization of "Stages to Saturn" hosted on NASA's History website:
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4206/p405.htm (page with that image)
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4206/contents.htm (contents page of the book)

[raven]

Why is not wanting your computer infected with software that could do harm a 'stupid rule'?

[LunarOrbit]

Show us your 1.63 MJ/kg calculation or source.

See link in post #1.

Why don't you actually demonstrate to us that you understand the subjects we're discussing by participating in the discussion rather than directing us to another website? For all we know you just copied it from some other source and you don't even understand what it means.  Or maybe you wrote your website while suffering from a fever and whatever "insight" it gave you has left you.

[Heiwa]

As more fuel is burned, if thrust is constant, the rate of deceleration will be increased. After all, you are not decelerating a 43,000 pound space craft any more, but one that is the amount of fuel burned lighter.

You are right except that the space craft mass was 43 000 kg prior braking into Moon orbit at 2400 m/s speed. What it was in Moon orbit at 1500 m/s speed is not known = we do not know the fuel consumed, which I find strange. You would expect that fuel consumption was monitored carefully ... because you couldn't fill up underway. Same for getting out of Moon orbit after dumping the LM. Mass before may have been 30 000 kg but afterwards en route for Earth, difference of which is fuel consumed, is not known.

At one Apollo trip they could not dump the LM but still managed to get out of Moon orbit with that extra weight 13 000 kg and you really wonder how it was possible. NASA will not explain.

[Heiwa]

Show us your 1.63 MJ/kg calculation or source.

See link in post #1.

Why don't you actually demonstrate to us that you understand the subjects we're discussing by participating in the discussion rather than directing us to another website? For all we know you just copied it from some other source and you don't even understand what it means.  Or maybe you wrote your website while suffering from a fever and whatever "insight" it gave you has left you.

See post #145. The fuel consumption is the ones for the LM descent/ascent engines. I use the same for the SM engine. Clear?
In post #204 there are four links to external web sites. Nothing wrong with it! Actually one link is to a figure I prepared for my presentation. Apparently with an abusive comment but it was more ironic - cosmomouses checking the engines prior departure, etc.

[nomuse]

You can produce a force forever with no energy at all when that force does not act through a distance.

Yes, a force applied to any mass while not displacing the mass any distance does not require energy to exist ... as no energy is required. But here the force is applied on Apollo 11 by its SM rocket engine to slow down Apollo 11 during a rather long trajectory to enter Moon orbit and for that energy/fuel is required. Pls try to stay on topic and do not start with some metaphysical nonsense popular amongst SF-writers.

Force without work is science fiction?

Magnets -- how the $%^&^%$ do they work?!