Author Topic: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?  (Read 1098844 times)

Offline gillianren

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1425 on: April 01, 2013, 12:15:13 AM »
I'm hesitant about those.  I don't think they help the discussion, at least not as pervasively as I've seen them.  It is something that exists, and it is something that colours the conversation, but it's also an argument from authority in some ways.  "Trust me--I know what I'm talking about.  I'm an Expert."  And, yeah, a lot of the people here are experts, and I do think asking why someone who didn't pass high school physics (not a mandatory class everywhere) and hasn't done algebra in twenty years feels qualified to argue with professional engineers is legitimate.  And after all, Dunning-Kruger is a better explanation than mental illness in most cases, I think.  However, harping about it starts to feel smug after a while.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1426 on: April 01, 2013, 12:59:07 AM »
What about allegations of Dunning-Kruger?

I would suggest that the description of the Dunning-Kruger effect as...

"....a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes"

... is the perfect description of Jarrah White and others like him.

In fact he's worse, because not only is he unable to recognise his mistakes, he cannot do so even when they are repeatedly pointed out to him.
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline ka9q

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1427 on: April 01, 2013, 07:47:06 AM »
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
It's often attributed to him, but he doesn't seem to have originated it. It was used by James Schlesinger and Bernard Baruch before him.

Offline ka9q

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1428 on: April 01, 2013, 07:49:43 AM »
but it's also an argument from authority in some ways.  "Trust me--I know what I'm talking about.  I'm an Expert."
This can be an argument from authority, but experts often have and can cite empirical evidence that non-experts don't have -- and that gives them considerable weight that isn't just "authority".

Offline Echnaton

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1429 on: April 01, 2013, 09:04:52 AM »
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
It's often attributed to him, but he doesn't seem to have originated it. It was used by James Schlesinger and Bernard Baruch before him.

Interesting.  I'd always read that Moynihan was the source. 
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1430 on: April 01, 2013, 09:17:13 AM »
What about allegations of Dunning-Kruger?
The problem with pointing out the DK effect is that in doing so one is inferring an unobservable psychological state of an individual from a very limited scope of interaction.  While we all have a thought about the psychological state of various HBs, we really don't know much about them.  Certainly not enough to make that kind of judgement to the exclusion of other possible reasons for their behaviors.  It can easily become a dismissal or a straightforward ad hominem. 

Anyone invoking DK runs the very real risk of exhibiting DK themselves, because asserting that another is exhibiting DK when one doesn't have enough knowledge to know one is wrong, is classic DK.

The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline gillianren

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1431 on: April 01, 2013, 01:12:49 PM »
but it's also an argument from authority in some ways.  "Trust me--I know what I'm talking about.  I'm an Expert."
This can be an argument from authority, but experts often have and can cite empirical evidence that non-experts don't have -- and that gives them considerable weight that isn't just "authority".


Yes, I grant that.  On the other hand, the majority of people here--myself included--don't post under their real names.  This means that we're really taking people's word for things.  (If anyone does want to look up my BA, I'm perfectly happy to give them the relevant information, but the joy of my own field is that it's mostly subjective anyway.)  I do believe that all of you have the credentials you claim, but I have no way of being sure in most cases.  That's why I think presenting the information is more important than citing expertise in most cases.  Expertise does become relevant; for example, anyone claiming all engineers agree with them needs to be made aware that various of the people here aren't going to go for it.  However, the information is the real issue.
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Offline Noldi400

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1432 on: April 01, 2013, 01:15:49 PM »
but it's also an argument from authority in some ways.  "Trust me--I know what I'm talking about.  I'm an Expert."
This can be an argument from authority, but experts often have and can cite empirical evidence that non-experts don't have -- and that gives them considerable weight that isn't just "authority".

Well, we need to bear in mind that Argument From Authority isn't automatically a fallacy. For example, when Jay makes a statement about why Falcon 1/3 failed at staging, that is an Appeal From (his own) Authority. However, Jay is a legitimate expert in astrodynamics, and if you checked around, the consensus of other legitimate experts in the field agree with his statement. This would therefore be a legitimate A.F.A.

OTOH, when hunchbacked states that a spacecraft orbiting a planet naturally keeps the same side toward the planet, like an airplane flying over the surface...  Well, even though he claims to be an Aeronautical Engineer, his many public statements make it doubtful that he could be considered a legitimate expert, and certainly there is no consensus among other experts that support the claim, so this would be a fallacious Appeal From Authority.

Like the man said in the movie Armageddon: "I know the presidents' chief scientific advisor, we were at MIT together. And, in a situation like this, you-you really don't wanna take the advice from a man who got a C minus in astrophysics."

« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 01:19:52 PM by Noldi400 »
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline ka9q

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1433 on: April 01, 2013, 06:32:23 PM »
Like the man said in the movie Armageddon: "I know the presidents' chief scientific advisor, we were at MIT together. And, in a situation like this, you-you really don't wanna take the advice from a man who got a C minus in astrophysics."
Or from Homer J. Simpson:
Quote
Oh, there's so much I don't know about astrophysics. I sure wish I'd read that book by that wheelchair guy.
In all seriousness, we all give weight to expert opinions. I know I do. But not blindly. I also test them. I'll read up on the topic, probe here and there and kick the tires so to speak, to see if at least some of what they say checks out with other sources or from my own knowledge and experience.



Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1434 on: April 01, 2013, 06:53:30 PM »
An appeal to authority becomes fallacious when a proposition is not one of relevant expert judgment.  If it is an ordinary sensory observation, then the witness' expertise is irrelevant.  If it is an attempt to characterize, identify, or explain an observation outside the normal ken, expertise is relevant.  If the proposition is a deductive line of reasoning, then expertise is irrelevant.  If it is an inductive leap outside the normal ken, then expertise is relevant.

A non-expert may certainly make a lay inductive argument, but the inductive leap belongs to the hearer, not the speaker.

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"Tom's car wasn't in the garage last night and he wasn't answering his phone.  I think he's having an affair."
"He could be, or perhaps he was working late and didn't want to be disturbed."

In contrast with

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"I have a fever and a stuffy nose.  I must have the flu."
"No, I'm a qualified doctor and the results of my medical examination are consistent more with a sinus infection."

which is an expert induction.  The world doesn't stop us from drawing partially informed or inexpert judgments based on our observations.  But we cannot use them as evidence in formal argumentation.

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"Noted physicist Stephen Hawking told me I have the flu, not strep throat."

is fallacious because the cited expert has no relevant expertise.

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"Noted physicist Stephen Hawking once stated that if some Texans have loud voices and Tom is a Texan, then Tom must have a loud voice."

is also a fallacy because it expresses a deductive fallacy.  The expertise or eminence of Hawking is irrelevant to the inherent invalidity of the deduction.

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"Noted physicist Stephen Hawking once stated that if some stars are destined to become black holes, then our sun will inevitably become one."

This is the same fallacy in different form, because it is improper deduction.  However, because the nature of the statement relates to Hawking's designated field of expertise, it is not easy to notice this type of fallacy or to get a proper rebuttal to stick.  A better phrased statement would be

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"Noted physicist Stephen Hawking once stated he believed our sun would eventually become a black hole."

which is not a fallacious appeal to authority, although it does raise the other important problem with expertise -- the notion that experts may differ.  Earth's sun is not nearly massive enough to become a black hole, so while this fits the pattern of proper appeal to authority, the conclusion could still be contested by other experts.

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"The police officer said he heard a loud noise."

is a non-authority statement.  Here the officer simply acts within the ken of the normal human being, and reports a sensory observation.

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"The police officer heard a gunshot."

is not a fallacious appeal to authority because a police officer could possibly be expected to distinguish a gunshot from other loud reports -- although his expert judgment would not be above challenge.

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"The police officer heard a blimp hitting a building."

is not fallacious per se but is largely non-credible because the expertise and experience of the officer would not be sufficient to judge the cause of the noise simply from hearing.

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"The police officer saw what he believed to be an alien spacecraft."
"How did he know it was?"
"Because it didn't look like anything he'd seen before, and police officers are trained to be careful observers."

fails logically as well as empirically.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Noldi400

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1435 on: April 02, 2013, 12:50:19 AM »
He shur talks purty, don't he?

Seriously, nicely broken down. I was just giving a quick and dirty example to point out that Appeal From Authority is not automatically fallacious - it depends upon the authority and the statement.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline gillianren

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1436 on: April 02, 2013, 11:19:19 AM »
Oh, I'm aware of all that.  I still think, however, it's best to avoid appeals to authority--even legitimate authority--in favour of presentation of facts.  I also think we have to be aware that how legitimate anyone's authority is can be in dispute a lot more easily than the facts ought to be.  Then again, with some of the people I've dealt with, everything is in dispute.
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"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1437 on: April 02, 2013, 11:36:19 AM »
At least in law, the presentation of expert testimony is a presentation of the facts followed by an interpretation of the facts as needed by the testifying expert.  "I'm the expert and I say so," is a weak argument even when true.  A useful expert treatise is, as I said, a learned interpretation of facts.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1438 on: April 02, 2013, 12:48:14 PM »
I don't think that's always what we get around here, though I imagine that's as much a product of frustration as anything.  Eventually, after fifty pages of the facts' getting disputed, all that's left is "I do this for a living!  What do you know?"
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"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Noldi400

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #1439 on: April 02, 2013, 01:48:09 PM »
Well, for me at least, a great many things that we accept as "facts" are dependent upon someone else's authority.

Moon rocks, for example. I accept as fact that the materials so labeled are indeed samples taken from the lunar surface. I cannot make that statement from my own knowledge, however; I accept the personal testimony of the astronauts who collected them, and the collective expertise of the geologists who have examined them.

Hell, all of my rudimentary knowledge of astrodynamics and orbital mechanics is authority based. I accept the principles I've learned because the engineers - like Jay - who have verified them empirically vouch for them and they are consistent with the world as I have observed it.

IMHO, when you get right down to it, pretty much everything we laypersons know about the Apollo missions is what we are told by people who are putative experts in the appropriate fields.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz