So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?

[Echnaton]

Sorry, you do not know what you are talking about. At low tide you can see the sea floor and there is nothing to float on. You have hit the bottom, so to say.

The frantic fuming of one who is loosing a battle with those grounded in the real world.

So, bye, bye. You are not really fun.

There is something to be said for resigning rather than going  down the meltdown to banning path. 

[raven]

At least we can't have ' delete all my comments!' meltdowns like before.

[Sus_pilot]

High tide or low tide doesn't matter. Again, this is something that the ship does not have to compensate for. Wherever it goes, wherever it sets out from, wherever it ends up and whatever conditions it meets on the journey, barring disaster it will always end up in port floating on top of the water, just like when it left.

Sorry, you do not know what you are talking about. At low tide you can see the sea floor and there is nothing to float on. You have hit the bottom, so to say.
I have a distinct feeling this Apollohoaxforum is run by some bored, retired NASA hoaxsters with bad pensions and nagging wifes or husbands in some lousy subdivision where most houses are empty.
So, bye, bye. You are not really fun.

Can adults really be this immature? 

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

Evidently plenty NASA people lie about Apollo 11.

It's only the hoaxies that lie.

ALL THE TIME!

I've stopped believing they actually care about the truth a long time ago.

Can LunarOrbit lock this thread? This is going nowhere fast.

Oh, I don't know.  It is mildly entertaining seeing how long Heiwa can keep up his facade of being an engineer.

The facade was demolished on page 1.
It's has all been play-acting since.

[raven]

Can adults really be this immature?

Yes, evidently they can.
If this was an actual child, they would have a sense of curiosity and enjoyment of discovery.
Yes, children can be stubborn, but they also love to learn, to know.

[nomuse]

Of course I have been told that Apollo 13 (service module out of order) with pure luck...

With luck?  Where do you think it was originally headed, Mars?

managed to steer close to the Moon (requiring fuel)

Most of the Apollo spacecraft were already aimed in exactly this way.  However, on this forum we like an attention to detail and honesty, and thus we point out that Apollo 13 was one of the missions that deviated from that template.  But not by very much.  As a first approximation, the existing flight path already carried it around the Moon and back towards home.  And this is a natural course for any spacecraft you send to the Moon, whether it is intended to flyby or go into orbit around it.

using the LM engine/fuel/steering aids,

How can you discuss the maneuvers if you don't even know which systems were used, what they were called, and what their capacity was?  Did it cross your mind that the LM, for one instance, is an independent spacecraft with the maneuverability to land on another world?  You would think that would imply the ability to make attitude adjustments while in free space!

so it could swing around the Moon using its gravity and then,

You describe this as if it was a rare event.  Oh, I forgot.  You don't believe in planetary probes, either.

at the right moment managed to change direction towards Earth (requiring more fuel), etc, etc, blah, blah, to land safely on Earth.

As an approximation, no.  If you entered the approach around the Moon at the right spot, you head back towards Earth automatically.  The only "more fuel" is mid-course corrections -- adjustments made so you don't need to make that lunar pass at millimetric precision. 

As a thought experiment, what if we remove the Moon?  Send a spacecraft out on a trajectory that intersects the Moon's orbit.  Don't do anything else.  Don't even go near the Moon.  Where does that spacecraft end up after a roughly equal amount of time? 

All nonsense of course! The NASA SF writers produced a little drama ... assisted by Hollywood. I assume you are sorry you cannot win 1 million Euro?

[gillianren]

We're so awesome.

You are!  It always makes me happy to see the two of you interact. 

Did anyone else notice that, the more common-sense a post was, the less likely he was to respond to it?  Oh, sure, lots of ignoring the numbers, but it's as though some of us were barely even here.  He never responded to the Walter Cronkite thing once it was made clear that he hadn't worked for NASA.  He never responded to "ham radio operators tracked Apollo."  He never responded to "it isn't possible for everyone at JPL to be an actor."  He never responded to "I've never worked for NASA."  Just blew hard about numbers that he couldn't hope to understand, presumably in the hopes that we'd miss the easy stuff he didn't answer.  Heck, he never really even faced the idea that his site is infected with malware!

[Donnie B.]

For the record, Gillianren, I'm super jealous that you got to see Hubble and the other hardware at JPL.  I guess that makes up for your being too young to have experienced the Moon landings live, though.

As for Anders, it was clear from the start he was a sort of court jester, though I have enjoyed reading through the thread.  It calls to mind the ST-TOS episode where Kirk et al were caught in a parallel universe (the "evil Spock" episode).  When they returned, they found their evil counterparts had been immediately spotted and detained, while they had been able to "pass" in the other universe.  "Heiwa" had as much chance of convincing us he was a millionaire or engineer as Evil Kirk had of running the "real" Enterprise.

[Noldi400]

Can LunarOrbit lock this thread? This is going nowhere fast.

Oh, I don't know.  It is mildly entertaining seeing how long Heiwa can keep up his facade of being an engineer.  And how long he can blatantly ignore the answers giving him.  And how long he can refuse to prove there is any money at all.

And for the moment it seems to be the only game in town - it's been a while since we had a non-seagull to play with.

[gillianren]

For the record, Gillianren, I'm super jealous that you got to see Hubble and the other hardware at JPL.  I guess that makes up for your being too young to have experienced the Moon landings live, though.

I'm not a hundred percent sure it does, really.  But if you're ever in the Greater Los Angeles Area in May, JPL has an open house every year.  (I get the notifications, because one of my oldest friends works in the JPL business office.)  It's not the only way I got to see things being built; for example, there was the time in seventh grade that my junior high choir went caroling around the complex, and they sort of combined it with a tour.  (I still have the Christmas tree ornament they gave me; unfortunately, it has nothing to do with space whatsoever.  And technically, my mom has it.)  They're very good about interacting with the community and always have been.  I think people have this view of JPL as being not unlike a military base, with everything top secret and everyone's needing to have a pass, and to be fair, there is an extent to which they require passes.  You definitely aren't allowed to go wherever you want to, even on open house days.  But they could not maintain hoaxes with the level of openness they do have.

[Glom]

And with that, allow me to summarise what happened here.

Heiwa misunderstood how to calculate fuel requirements for orbital manoeuvres (apparently that's how you spell it), getting hung up on using simple kinetic energy equations in the wrong way, and as such came out with wrong answer, and refused to listen to anyone as they explained that fuel requirements are best calculated from the Tsiolkovsky equation.

In addition, he failed to understand how kinetic energy can be dissipated through aerobraking, got completely confused about the transposition, docking and extraction bit of a typical Apollo lunar mission, and demonstrated repeatedly an inability to research basic figures like what propellants were used in what engines and simply declared them kept secret by NASA, despite is being clearly demonstrated by many here multiple times that such information is freely available.

And just to make sure we know who we're dealing with here, he maintains that not only were the Apollo lunar mission faked, but in fact all manned spaceflight is fake and that no spacecraft launched into space can ever return to the surface of Earth.

My that's a lot of crazy.

[Mag40]

Hi Everyone,

Looks like I missed the party! I was kind of hoping that Heiwa was at least able to understand the 'walking on the plane' analogy. Sadly, he just ignored it. Even worse, now it has been explained to him that the mass changed, he has updated his crazy conclusion accordingly, though hasn't changed the velocities yet.

From his web page:
During the 357.5 seconds braking the space ship travelled about 697 125 meter or maybe 910 000 meter, with a brake force 97 400 N provided by the P-22KS rocket engine. Mass after this brake maneuver was 32 676 kg (or 72 038 lb). It would appear 10 898 kg of fuel was used.

The amount of fuel on the CSM used for events # 5 and 6 was reportedly 10 898 kg.

The spaceship kinetic energy before braking was 43574*2400²/2 = 125.4 GJ and after braking 32676*1500²/2 = 36.76 GJ, i.e. change in kinectic energy due braking was 88.64 GJ.


So accordingly.....he now thinks the problem even worse than before!

Just for Heiwa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-mass_system#Ideal_rocket_equation

[nomuse]

Well, I know that horse has sailed, but I had another thought about how it would work with Anderphysics.  Which is; why is he changing the sign on his equation?

So here we have a spacecraft, moving at some velocity relative to an arbitrary reference.  Thus we can say it has a certain Ke. The spacecraft then performs a maneuver and now has a lower velocity relative to that same reference, and a lower Ke.  The spacecraft has in fact lost energy, and far from expending fuel to do so, thus the tanks are now fuller than they had been when we started. 

You are making an arbitrary choice to subtract the lesser from the greater, and only because the logical way 'round gives you funny answers.  This is why we don't do it this way!

[frenat]

No, what I write is completely wrong correct and convoluted easy to understand. I understand I am nothing more than a troll and the money doesn't exist you are upset not having won my 1 million Euro, though. You are not alone.

Fixed that for you.

[frenat]

High tide or low tide doesn't matter. Again, this is something that the ship does not have to compensate for. Wherever it goes, wherever it sets out from, wherever it ends up and whatever conditions it meets on the journey, barring disaster it will always end up in port floating on top of the water, just like when it left.

Sorry, you do not know what you are talking about. At low tide you can see the sea floor and there is nothing to float on. You have hit the bottom, so to say.
I have a distinct feeling this Apollohoaxforum is run by some bored, retired NASA hoaxsters with bad pensions and nagging wifes or husbands in some lousy subdivision where most houses are empty.
So, bye, bye. You are not really fun.

Translation:  I'm taking my toys and going home!  Trolling isn't fun when you guys don't fall for my crap.