So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?

[Jason Thompson]

Where did that energy go? It was dumped!

Dumped where? In the mass of the fuel that was thrown overboard? Fine. So if you are considering the overboard fuel mass in that case, why are you ignoring it in the case of an engine burn?

This discussion is getting sillier and sillier.

That's down to you and you alone.

Sorry, you have to do much better to earn topic!

How many times do I have to tell you I don't give a damn about the million euros because I am certain you don't have it and that you have no intention of handing it over even if you did?

[Jason Thompson]

A sea going ship, engine of which via the propeller applies a force F to the ship, proceeds at constant speed, say x knots, while the environment (water/air/friction/collisions with atoms) applies a force -F to the ship = there is balance.

So why do you think this business of drag doesn't apply to an object falling through air? Constant force from gravity, drag from air. Balance is achieved, velocity reaches constant value and the falling spacecraft can't accelerate without a force being applied. Terminal velocity is too high to survive impact of the spacecraft with the ground, so a parachute is used to slow it further.

[Daggerstab]

Björkman has changed his page again. In green are the new additions.

(The spaceship velocities used here are absolute to the planets or Moon in question. The planets evidently rotate around themselves and orbit around the Sun at other velocities. Space travel experts suggest that I should add the velocity of the Earth/Moon orbiting the Sun plus the velocity of the Sun orbiting the Universe to the velocities given here but as I do not know the latter I just use the velocities given by NASA ... to calculate the kinetic energies involved. Just to get a feel of the situation ... as zero velocity or kinetic energy does not exist in space)

As far as I can remember, nobody here suggested such a thing. Heiwa, if this was written about the discussion here, point out the post where this suggestion was made, otherwise I'll just assume that you are lying.

We also get this gem (the whole paragraph is new text):

It thus took about 73 hours or 262 800 seconds to travel the distance 384 000 000 meters. Average velocity during Moon trip was only 1 460 m/s. If start velocity to get away from Earth was 11 200 m/s and arrival velocity was 2 400 m/s with a minimum velocity at about 9/10th of the distance travelled due to Earth gravity, you really wonder how space ship velocity varied during the trip to the Moon.

Apparently all the discussion about the energy balance really confused him:

The spaceship kinetic energy before braking was 43574*2400²/2 = 125.4 GJ and after braking 32676*1500²/2 = 36.76 GJ, i.e. change in kinetic energy due braking was 88.64 GJ. Space travel experts suggest that you cannot calculate the kinetic energy in space as the 'space' is moving at another velocity to be added or subtracted to the ones given but as the latter speed is not known to them, I keep it simple as indicated. It seems we agree that fuel/energy, in this case 10 898 kg, was used to change the velocity of the space craft that became 10 898 kg lighter.

Heiwa, answer me this: those 10 898 kg of mass had kinetic energy before the burn, as you include them in the mass of the spacecraft. What do you think happened with that kinetic energy when the fuel was spent?

The rest of the changes on the page seem to be trivial.

[Jason Thompson]

It thus took about 73 hours or 262 800 seconds to travel the distance 384 000 000 meters. Average velocity during Moon trip was only 1 460 m/s. If start velocity to get away from Earth was 11 200 m/s and arrival velocity was 2 400 m/s with a minimum velocity at about 9/10th of the distance travelled due to Earth gravity, you really wonder how space ship velocity varied during the trip to the Moon.

Ah, I see he falls into the usual hole of assuming you can treat the journey as a straight line....

[Jason Thompson]

(The spaceship velocities used here are absolute to the planets or Moon in question.

Something cannot be absolute to anything. They are relative to something. In the case of the Apollo spacecraft the speeds described are relative to the Earth.

Space travel experts suggest that I should add the velocity of the Earth/Moon orbiting the Sun plus the velocity of the Sun orbiting the Universe to the velocities given here

Please do point out where anyone has actually said you should do any such thing.

Space travel experts suggest that you cannot calculate the kinetic energy in space as the 'space' is moving at another velocity to be added or subtracted to the ones given

Again, please point out where this was said by anyone. The only thing you have been told needs to be added or subtracted is the velocity (and hence the kinetic energy) of the exhaust from the engine burn. It consists of mass that was part of the spacecraft before but is now no longer part of it. The thing we are trying (with frankly no hope of success) to get you to grasp is that you cannot ignore this mass in your calculations just because it is no longer attached to the spacecraft, as it is still part of the system in which energy and mass are conserved.

[Dinorupe]

Ive seen web pages where people claim every manned mission,from Gemini to the ISS was all staged in a huge underwater tank.
Its funny how there are countless articles available online completely free by qualified/verified engineers etc supporting the landings but all the hoaxers are either self-taught engineers/former librarians (lol) or people just trying to sell a book.

[Jason Thompson]

The internet is a wonderful thing. It has made so many Apollo-related resources freely available from the comfort of your own living room. And yet there are still people out there who insist this stuff is not available, or that there are 'only' so many pictures. Just look at the number of time Heiwa has insisted that data he wants are not available. The disturbing thing is when people keep on insisting this stuff is not available even when it is handed to them on a plate....

[Dinorupe]

Just like how the Saturn V and LM blueprints have mysteriously disappeared....dont tell NASA but i have them on my phone and they werent hard to find!

[gwiz]

Something cannot be absolute to anything. They are relative to something. In the case of the Apollo spacecraft the speeds described are relative to the Earth.

I think the LOI velocities we've been discussing are relative to the moon.

[Jason Thompson]

Ah, that would make sense. I stand corrected.

Heiwa, please note how easy those words came. You might want to try using them yourself some time.

[Glom]

Heiwa, do you know Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion? You really seem confuses about how an object should move in an orbit.

It takes a very delusional mind to think that when faced with something you don't understand, it's the whole world that's wrong and not just your understanding.

[Zakalwe]

It takes a very delusional mind to think that when faced with something you don't understand, it's the whole world that's wrong and not just your understanding.

But that is the mindset of a lot of hoax believers, isn't it? They selectively filter what they see and hear. They have the time to watch countless YouTube videos but yet won't spend an afternoon on the Lunar Surface Journal or the NASA Technical Documents Server.

For sure, some HB have never been shown the places to get information. Once they have they realise just what a magnificent achievement that the Apollo program was. Vincent McConnell is an example...he came here (IIRC) as a HB.

The ones that I really don't get are the ones like Heiwa. They have been presented with information and yet refuse to acknowledge it. They are wilfully ignorant, and personally I find that the lowest form of intellectual cowardice there is.   I think that they have invested so much of their energies into believing the hoax that to climb down off their hobby horse would be impossible for them. So they keep ploughing their own furrow and ultimately keep well away from places like this (hence why I think that Heiwa's behaviour will get more extreme resulting in a ban, or he will flounce...its happened loads of times before).

[Noldi400]

OK Heiwa, you want to do a simple energy difference calculation? Fine. Forget burning the fuel. Just imagine that the spacecraft dumps all that fuel overboard in a non-propulsive way. Its mass decreases, it's velocity remains unchanged. Its kinetic energy therefore has decreased. Where did that energy go? How did the kinetic energy of the spacecraft change? The answer to that might help you with the answer to your original issue.

Where did that energy go? It was dumped! What are you trying to say? This discussion is getting sillier and sillier. Like the post about space navigation by sextant and compass and charts at high g (like in a WWII bomber) while swinging into Moon orbit or that weak structures like tin boxes can slow down from 11 200 m/s to 100 m/s (re-entry) by friction/turbulence without burning up. Sorry, you have to do much better to earn topic!

I think maybe you have the wrong picture in your head when reading this phrase. The sextant used by the Apollo spacecraft wasn't the ages-old traditional style seaman's sextant:

It was built into the outer wall of the Command Module and was part of the navigation station in the lower equipment bay:

Honestly, if you want to debate a legitimate question that's one thing, but making fun by pretending to misunderstand the terminology is beneath an adult human.
Besides, the Apollo Program took place only about 20 years after the end of WWII - why wouldn't similar technology still be in use?

[Noldi400]

It takes a very delusional mind to think that when faced with something you don't understand, it's the whole world that's wrong and not just your understanding.

But that is the mindset of a lot of hoax believers, isn't it? They selectively filter what they see and hear. They have the time to watch countless YouTube videos but yet won't spend an afternoon on the Lunar Surface Journal or the NASA Technical Documents Server.

For sure, some HB have never been shown the places to get information. Once they have they realise just what a magnificent achievement that the Apollo program was. Vincent McConnell is an example...he came here (IIRC) as a HB.

The ones that I really don't get are the ones like Heiwa. They have been presented with information and yet refuse to acknowledge it. They are wilfully ignorant, and personally I find that the lowest form of intellectual cowardice there is.   I think that they have invested so much of their energies into believing the hoax that to climb down off their hobby horse would be impossible for them. So they keep ploughing their own furrow and ultimately keep well away from places like this (hence why I think that Heiwa's behaviour will get more extreme resulting in a ban, or he will flounce...its happened loads of times before).

And those that do spend time on ALSJ and other sites use that time in looking for the tiny inconsistencies that are part of any human endeavor and trying to make them out to somehow support their own pet theories.

EDIT:
Oh, and Heiwa's already flounced a couple of times, but he keeps coming back (gotta give him points for persistence, I suppose) and lately seems to be skating right on the edge of a ban. IMO, LO has shown a lot of forbearance - I think he doesn't like to ban anyone unless their behavior just becomes too antisocial to be borne.

Besides, we haven't had a real HB around to play with in ages.

[Glom]

For numerous and diverse reasons no doubt, they have a desire and need to believe in the conspiracy theory.

Just recently, DakDak, when confronted with the uncomfortable fact that he didn't know anything and we did (something he could at least recognize on some level unlike Heiwa) practically had a nervous breakdown.

Then advancedboy, when told that Kaysing had made up the conspiracy theory, seemed genuinely heart broken that his prophet was a liar (believing 400,000 people who worked on the project are liars is no problem for him on the other hand).

Many of the HB's cling to this or any other conspiracy theory like a life vest.