Author Topic: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?  (Read 1097958 times)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #735 on: January 04, 2013, 01:28:32 PM »
Heiwa, your post #732 will not be allowed for once again telling someone they are being off topic.

Since moderation doesn't seem to be discouraging this behaviour, I will ban you for 1 week the next time you do it. If after that week you do it again you will be banned permanently.

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Offline gillianren

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #736 on: January 04, 2013, 01:31:03 PM »
Have you still not understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win my Challenges.

Once again, you have posted something accurate, though it certainly has nothing to do with physical principles.  It is impossible to win your challenges for a few reasons.

1.  The money doesn't exist.
2.  Even if the money does exist, you will never acknowledge your errors.
3.  On those rare occasions when you do acknowledge your errors (want to talk some more about Walter Cronkite?), you pretend that your previous stance never happened and change the rules of your challenge.
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Offline nomuse

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Re: Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #737 on: January 04, 2013, 01:56:13 PM »


But that's a loss of kinetic energy.

No, it is a change in kinetic energy of the space ship before/after a force was applied on it (to reduce the velocity). No kinetic energy was lost. It was transformed into heat.

You know "It takes a very delusional mind to think that when faced with something you don't understand, it's the whole world that's wrong and not just your understanding."

Heat is energy.  Or do you disagree with chemistry now?

You are still subtracting Y from 2X and asking why it isn't symmetrical with adding Y to X. 


Offline Andromeda

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #738 on: January 04, 2013, 02:01:57 PM »
Does anyone else feel like we are part of some bizarre and unethical high school psych experiment?
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #739 on: January 04, 2013, 02:05:43 PM »
Where did that energy go? It was dumped!

"Dumped" is not a very engineer-like description.  Please use the correct terminology, so that there is no ambiguity when it comes to litigating your million-euro fraud.  Did that energy leave the system?  If not, how should it be properly accounted for in the energy-balance equation so that the total energy is the same on either side of the = sign?  If it did leave the system, how should an energy-balance equation for this system correctly account for factors that were once part of the system but were then lost to the environment?

As I and others have repeatedly stated, your energy-balance formulation is wrong because you redefine the system for your end conditions.  Subtracting the mass that was ejected overboard, and its associated kinetic energy, redefines the system for the purposes of balancing energy.  Hence your initial and final conditions don't relate to the same system.  You need to learn to think abstractly like an engineer, not intuitively like a layman.

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What are you trying to say?

We're trying to say that your construction of the energy-balance equation in this case is wrong.  We've been saying it for more than 40 pages, and yet you still don't understand.

To illustrate your error we've applied your model to a simpler form of the same problem.  Your implied contention is that if you remove mass from the system, you no longer have to consider it part of the system for energy-balance purposes.  So what we've done is to remove velocity from the problem by holding it constant (i.e., so that it can be canceled algebraically from both sides of the equation), which allows us also to remove the parts of the equation dealing with propulsion and changes in velocity.  The resulting problem has only the mass terms at constant velocity in all cases.  That forms a useful base case.

If your model is correct, the energy equations should still balance in this base case.  Absent any chemical energy or complicating factors, you're dealing with mass moving at a constant velocity in the initial condition, and mass moving at the same constant velocity in the final condition, with no change in velocity across the equation.  But since your model requires us to subtract the separated mass from the system, we end up with less kinetic energy on the right-hand side (final condition) of the equation than there is on the left-hand side (initial condition).  Since your model doesn't balance the energy in the base case, it is incorrect.  But if we include the separated mass in the final conditions -- which is the proper way to formulate a closed system for energy-balance purposes -- the energy balances in the base case.  This proves to us that any valid model for balancing the energy in a spacecraft propulsion system must include the mass and velocity of the exhaust products.

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This discussion is getting sillier and sillier.

Indeed, due entirely to your incompetence, arrogance, and stubbornness.  We have been telling you the same thing for 40 pages, and you utterly refuse to grasp why your model is incorrect, regardless of how "simple" you've made it.  You've failed to take the most elementary step of first validating your model on a simple case, and then arrogantly failed to recognize the value of it when someone else does that work for you.

You've been repeatedly given sources you continue to say don't exist.  That is blatantly dishonest.  While we may attribute your inability to see the error in your computations to an understandable lack of competence in a highly specialized and demanding field, the bald denial of the existence plainly before your face is evidence either of a criminal motivation to mislead (since you make a monetary offer based in part on the existence of such evidence), or considerable mental dysfunction.

The discussion grows increasingly silly because you keep retreating farther into a world

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Like the post about space navigation by sextant and compass and charts at high g (like in a WWII bomber) while swinging into Moon orbit...

I've flown in a B-17 bomber, and it's not what I would call a "high g" experience.  The problem with navigating a B-17 is the cramped quarters, not the motion of the airplane.  Navigation sightings by any method are not attempted while the aircraft is in anything but straight and level flight.

Similarly Apollo missions didn't attempt optical navigation during accelerated flight.  For the SPS burns the crew was strapped into their couches in the CM.  And the optical methods by "sextant ... and charts" (no compass) is only the calibration step for the actual guidance and navigation controls, which were inertial in nature.  That task only had to be accomplished once every four hours or so, when the spacecraft was safely in inertial cruise flight.

Really?  A supposed marine engineer doesn't know how inertial navigation works?

And as has been belabored, SPS burns are not "high g" maneuvers.  I can routinely accelerate and corner my automobile at 0.3 g, although not today because it is icy.  That's slightly more than the SPS imparts to the occupants of the CSM.

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or that weak structures like tin boxes...

What evidence have you presented that the CM is the "weak tin box" you say it is?  The entire CM outer hull and heat shield was built according to the same construction and materials methods as are used on the F-16 Falcon and F-22 Raptor, which are high-g applications.  Further, stronger materials were used for the CM (e.g., high-strength steel instead of aluminum alloy) than for the high-performance jet fighters.

Sorry, just announcing that the CM is a weak airframe does not substantiate your claim or support your belief.  You bear the burden to prove that your uninformed opinion is actually correct.

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can slow down from 11 200 m/s to 100 m/s (re-entry)...

Do you deny the existence of aerodynamic drag?  Why do you think denial of a well-known physical principle is the basis from which to challenge an entire industry?

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by friction/turbulence without burning up.

Your unwillingness to learn the relevant sciences and consult the references you say do not exist (but which have been provided for you right here in this forum) is not a basis from which to argue there is some mystery regarding atmospheric re-entry.  As has been amply illustrated above, you lack a fundamental knowledge of how those forces work, and especially how the heat transfer works.

You don't understand ablative cooling.  It's not a difficult science, and it's not something confined to space travel.  That means lots of people know about it and know how it works.  You can't effectively fool the world into thinking this is some mysterious pseudoscience dreamed up by NASA.

You don't understand that the particular formulation of the heat shield in Apollo actually created a gas barrier using the chemical properties of the ablation process, and that this barrier layer has a very low coefficient of thermal conduction.  If most of the heat stays in the compressed air ahead of the spacecraft and cannot easily pass into the heat-sensitive portion of the spacecraft, then aerodynamic heating is effectively managed.

It's called "insulation."  You might want to check into it.  It isn't a super-secret NASA pseudo-invention either.

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Sorry, you have to do much better to earn topic!

No, sorry, the onus is on you.  We've shown that your beliefs, which you offer money to overturn, are based on denial, misconception, and in some cases bald-faced lies -- all of which you affirmatively refuse to correct in public.  The fact that you're silently changing your site to accommodate our corrections is evidence that you admit error, which was the condition of your test.  The fact that you're doing so surreptitiously is evidence that you're evading the payout, which is prima facie evidence of fraud in any jurisdiction.  I'm sure I won't have any problem finding a lawyer in France who will be happy to sue you for the sum.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 02:41:19 PM by JayUtah »
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #740 on: January 04, 2013, 02:07:44 PM »
I simply didn't agree. The whole world is not wrong.

You ARE claiming the whole world is wrong, because the whole world uses the principles WE have been describing, including things like the Tsiolkovsky equation, energy systems and so on to do what not only public space programs but commercial revenue absolutely depends on. YOU are the ONLY one who is making calculations to show that those things are impossible. When faced with such a large and wide-ranging and long lasting opposition to their numbers, most people go back and check and recheck to see where they went wrong. You, on the other hand, simply restate your original position and conclude that EVERYONE else is wrong, despite decades of application of the stuff you say is wrong.

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Only Apollo 11 is SF.

And what of the other Apollo flights to the moon?

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So why delete my reply?

How difficult is it for you to understand that having been told 'do not do X or your reply will not be posted', doing X will result in your reply not being posted?

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encourage creative thinking by offering money,

Money that you do not have. You have been presented with ways to prove you have it, but you refuse to do so. If you were serious about your challenge you would treat those who take it up seriously. You don't. You evade, taunt, insult and ignore them.

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Plenty of people suggesting I am broke, etc, etc. I am happy to say I am not and live comfortably in southern France with a grand view of the Med.

No-one has suggested you are broke. Not having one million euros hardly qualifies as broke. I live comfortably too, and am nowhere near broke. I also do not have a million euros. The difference between us is that I am not fraudulently offering that million euros I don't have to anyone.
 I recommend posters to focus on topic and not divert from it. [/quote]

Whether you have the money IS the topic, and you have been told over and over again NOT to tell people to stay on topic. Did you take a course in being obtuse?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #741 on: January 04, 2013, 02:13:11 PM »
Have you still not understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win my Challenges. Physical principles do not allow it. 

No, your utter and absolute refusal to acknowledge that you might be making errors and to look at relevant materials that are presented to you (indeed, to continue to claim repeatedly that they do not exist, despite them being very evidently (and I use that word correctly) in existence) is what makes it impossible. Physical principles have nothing to do with it. You have engineered the challenges to be impossible to win because your delusional, egotistical little mind simply cannot conceive of you being WRONG about anything, so you retreat from any admission of error into your own little world where everyone is against you and only you know the truth. It's really sad to watch, actually.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #742 on: January 04, 2013, 02:17:59 PM »
No, it is a change in kinetic energy of the space ship before/after a force was applied on it (to reduce the velocity).

Yes, indeed it was. And what was applying that force? The expulsion of mass from the back of the engine.

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No kinetic energy was lost. It was transformed into heat.

It was transformed also into the kinetic energy of the exhaust products of the combustion of the fuel. Burning the fuel is an exothermic reaction. It ADDS energy to the system. Energy that was previously bound up as chemical energy in the fuel itself and which played no part in the kinetic energy equation. It CANNOT reduce the overall energy. The energy and mass on both sides of the equation must be conserved. That is a FUNDAMENTAL physical principle that has been known for over a century, and applied in many places not even slightly related to space travel. You MUST include the mass and energy of the exhaust on the 'post-burn' side of the equation or else you are simply not doing the caluclation correctly.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 02:19:53 PM by Jason Thompson »
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline gillianren

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #743 on: January 04, 2013, 02:25:49 PM »
Does anyone else feel like we are part of some bizarre and unethical high school psych experiment?

That could explain a few things.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Andromeda

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #744 on: January 04, 2013, 02:28:06 PM »
Can it be that Heiwa doesn't understand mass-energy conservation?
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Count Zero

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #745 on: January 04, 2013, 02:32:46 PM »
Maybe he manages engineers.

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Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #746 on: January 04, 2013, 02:33:58 PM »
Aha, you are now an expert of French law?

I have worked with French engineers.  I understand enough of the laws under which they must work to be able to satisfy the constraints that imposes upon our collaboration.  I understand that anyone offering services as an engineer in France must be licensed to do so, and that the licensure scope is even broader there than it is in the United States where I practice.  If you are pretending to be an engineer in France, and offering engineering services to the public without being properly licensed, you are criminally liable.  I understand further that under French law criminal liability attaches to the malpractice of engineering, which is defined as offering a service normally provided by an engineer, that is not properly predicated on sound engineering principles and best practices.

I do no profess to be an expert in French law, but I imagine that you may soon be contacted by people who are experts in French law as it applies to the practice of engineering, and that you may find yourself answering some very important questions from people who are not disposed to accept your bluster as an answer.

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Are you suggesting I am breaking the law?

Yes.  Was that ever unclear?

And no, it isn't off topic.  You have repeatedly tried to tell us that your offer of a million euros for us to find the errors in your analysis is the primary topic of this forum.  The legitimacy of that offer is very much relevant, as well as the legal consequences of misrepresenting it.  There are laws that govern offers of money for work.  If you offer a consideration in exchange for work performed, and the work is performed, and you refuse to supply the consideration upon demand, you are liable.  Your taunts are evidence that you consider the award very much still relevant.  The validity of the award is therefore also relevant.

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I think you are just upset not beating my Challenge.

You may attempt to put thoughts in my head or words in my mouth as you see fit, but that is not an appropriate answer.  I will be the authority on what I think and believe, not you.

I asked you to prove the existence of the money.  You refused.
I asked you to codify the conditions of the test.  You refused.
I asked you to substantiate your willingness to pay the reward, if required.  You refused.
I and others have asked you to do many things, some as simple as acknowledging the existence of material presented directly here.  You have refused.

In response you have silently accepted correction, thus evading a payout.
You have maintained an overarching air of arrogance.
You have clearly libeled a member of this forum, and by extension the other members of it.

I think it's clear which of us is most likely to be arguing from emotion rather than fact.  You rail against "Willy" and against the "fat lazy NASA PhDs," and you somehow wonder why this doesn't substantiate a belief that you're simply a crackpot with a personal axe to grind.

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Have you still not understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win my Challenges.

It is impossible to win your challenge because you fraudulently advertise money you do not have, you change the conditions of the contract as soon as they are met, and you deny the existence of fact that applies to the contractual obligations.

In fact, contrary to your claim below, physical principles do allow us to prove that your theory is incorrect and thus lay a valid claim to the promised award.

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Physical principles do not allow it.

Your personal understanding of physical principles does not allow it, but that's because your understanding is wrong.  We have shown you how it is wrong, but you are unwilling to address those corrections honestly.  You beg the question that you are properly informed and qualified.  We do not accept that as a premise of your argument.  You must establish that your understanding of the applicable principles is the correct one, since it is the standard against which you propose to evaluate another's claim.  Otherwise the proper answer is that your expectation is at fault.  It is additionally unfortunate that you have set a monetary condition on the correctness of your expectations.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #747 on: January 04, 2013, 02:35:43 PM »
Can it be that Heiwa doesn't understand mass-energy conservation?

It is a certain fact that he doesn't understand it in the context of energy-balance models.  He is patently unable to define the system correctly for such an analysis, and to recognize the error when it is pointed out to him.  His insistence on the wrong model aptly determines that he has no facility with it and no understanding of the theory behind such analysis.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #748 on: January 04, 2013, 03:01:15 PM »
I simply didn't agree. The whole world is not wrong.

Au contraire, that is explicitly your claim in a number of places here and elsewhere.  You claim that people who disagree with you are "lazy PhDs" occupying cushy positions where they do no real work and just pretend to be technical experts.  You suggest they take credit for accomplishments they never actually did.  You blatantly call liars the entire aerospace industry, which purports to operate spacecraft for commercial, scientific, and other purposes.  And when you are caught in an error, you have no problem trying to say that the point in question is one that "many engineers ... get wrong," when in fact you are the one found to be in error?

You specifically set yourself up to be an ultimate expert, passing judgment on entire industries and principles held as correct and verified by the entire world.

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Only Apollo 11 is SF.

Do you believe Apollo 12 is fiction?

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So why delete my reply?

Because you violated the specific instructions of the moderator.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?

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...is not deceive but encourage creative thinking by offering money...

No, you have changed the conditions of the contract again.  You did not initially propose to stimulate "creative thinking."  You initially proposed that you had made a correct analysis and that the money could be claimed by anyone who showed you errors in that analysis.  You have been shown errors.  You refuse to acknowledge overtly that you have been corrected, but you secretly change your web site to incorporate those corrections, hoping that it is not apparent that you were ever wrong.  That dishonest practice is what constitutes deception.

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...show how any manned space ship manages to visit Moon (or Mars) while overpowering gravity forces and finally getting back to Earth in one piece incl. fuel used.

And this has been done.

You have said Moon missions cannot have been done as advertised because they fail to match your expectations for what such a mission should require.  We have shown that your expectations are factually incorrect in some cases, and physically incorrect in other cases.  Your unwillingness to see the error in your expectation does not excuse you from the obligation you imposed upon yourself to reward those who corrected you.

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Plenty of people suggesting I am broke, etc, etc. I am happy to say I am not and live comfortably in southern France with a grand view of the Med.

False dichotomy -- no one has claimed you are broke.  We do, however, doubt that you have a million euros and are willing to pay it.  You refuse to substantiate the existence of the million euros you say you will pay, which fuels the suspicion.  If you really had the money and were really serious about paying it, you should have no problem satisfying the customary international protocols for such offers.  In fact, you should be well motivated, because only then would people take you seriously.  If you are unwilling to prove that you have it and are willing to pay it, then what is the value of your challenge?  It's just idle bluster until you prove the contrary.

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I recommend posters to focus on topic and not divert from it.

How many times are you going to try to moderate the thread before it sinks in that you cannot do that.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Noldi400

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Re: So, who wants to win 1 million Euro?
« Reply #749 on: January 04, 2013, 03:48:07 PM »
Heiwa:

Can you tell us why you are so wedded to your attempt to draw conclusions from the kinetic energy of a spacecraft?  The Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, which is derived from the linear momentum of a rocket when acted upon by outside forces, will give you an answer that accounts for the energy changes. Linear momentum (p) is directly proportional to kinetic energy, being p=mv, so Tsiolkovsky's should answer your concerns about kinetic energy changes. 

This equation has been used for 200 years (that we know of) in evaluating rocket performance and is well established as an industry standard.  Personally, the mathematics of the derivation are over my head, but the equation has been shown to be accurate in real world application over and over.

So why try to use an over-simplified approach that doesn't match the demonstrated performance? Or do you consider Tsiolkovsky's to be some kind of fiction?   Seriously?
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