Author Topic: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage  (Read 199812 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2012, 05:58:38 AM »
It is a very easily verifiable fact that the clear lexan (polycarbonate) material that the bubble helmet was made of is opaque to UV.
Very nearly so. According to that same Experience Report, the pressure helmet itself had a UV transmittance of 0.18. The impact protective visor was made of something called "UV stabilized polycarbonate" and has a UV transmittance of 0.00. The visible transmittance, however, is only 0.63 so you lose something for it.

I don't know how you "UV stabilize" polycarbonate, if it's something (like a dye) you add to it, or something you do to it.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2012, 09:55:52 AM »
I don't know how you "UV stabilize" polycarbonate, if it's something (like a dye) you add to it, or something you do to it.

It's an additive.

Polyamides are UV-opaque, but through absorption and not reflection.  Absorbing UV rays excites the polymer molecules themselves, causing the polymer structure eventually to break down and lose structural strength.  The internal fractures also cause opacity in the visible wavelength.  Extended exposure to UV will, over time, break down polyamide materials.

UV stabilization additives, typically benzotriazole compounds, absorb UV directly but this is not the primary mechanism of stabilization.  They also draw absorbed energy away from the polymer as thermal energy.  This latter role works only if the compound is added to the polymer formulation prior to thermoforming.

Lest this seem too exotic, polyamide sold under the trade name Lexan is the material compact discs, DVDs, and Blu-Ray discs are made from.  It's hardly an exotic material.  The optical-grade version of Lexan is what the vast majority of "plastic" eyeglass lenses are made from.  Opticians will tell you that they offer Lexan lenses with "UV protection," but they don't tell you it's an inherent property of the material.  It's a very common substance.  It just happens also to be what space helmets and space visors are made out of.  However the helmets in Apollo 13 and From the Earth to the Moon are made from acrylic because George at Global Effects couldn't get his vacuum forming machine to work on polyamide.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2012, 10:00:31 AM »
The visible transmittance, however, is only 0.63 so you lose something for it.

I'm not convinced the two are linked.  UV stabilization does not typically reduce visible-light transmissivity, nor does it substantially increase UV opacity.  The stabilizers merely mitigate the secondary effects of UV absorption in the polyamide so that it does not photodegrade.

The outer visor indeed had lower visible-light transmissivity, but that was intentional -- it was the astronaut's "sunglasses."  It wouldn't suprise me to learn that the optical coating substantially altered the UV transmissivity too.  But that would be the case whether the underlying substrate were UV-stabilized or not.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2012, 02:29:03 PM »
Lest this seem too exotic, polyamide sold under the trade name Lexan is the material compact discs, DVDs, and Blu-Ray discs are made from.
Wait a minute. I do know Lexan is one trade name for polycarbonate,  the distinguishing feature of which is the carbonate segment

–O–(C=O)–O–

Note that they do not contain nitrogen. Polyamides, on the other hand, refer to a large class of plastics containing the amide group -(C=O)-N<, Nylon being just one example. It therefore seems nitrogen is an essential ingredient of polyamides. Polycarbonate does not contain nitrogen, therefore it cannot be a polyamide.

Do I get an "I corrected Jay" t-shirt? :-)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2012, 02:35:01 PM »
The visible transmittance, however, is only 0.63 so you lose something for it.

I'm not convinced the two are linked.  UV stabilization does not typically reduce visible-light transmissivity, nor does it substantially increase UV opacity.
I only know what I see in the Apollo Experience Report. It says the pressure helmet is polycarbonate and the inner visor is "UV-stabilized polycarbonate". The visible transmissivity of the helmet is 92% while that of the visor is only 63%, so if the only difference is that the outer piece of polycarbonate is "UV stabilized" and the other isn't, then it also decreases visible transmission.

Perhaps they used some other process than what you know as "UV stabilization" to alter the optical properties of the material, not just to make it last longer under exposure.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2012, 03:02:39 PM »
Do I get an "I corrected Jay" t-shirt? :-)

I would think so.  That's one of my early-morning posts, which typically generate error.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #96 on: March 07, 2012, 04:09:07 PM »
As does writing from memory without checking. I've done the same more than a few times...

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #97 on: March 07, 2012, 06:37:19 PM »
As does writing from memory without checking. I've done the same more than a few times...

Indeed.  You start writing "poly-" and the rest just wanders around in search of a home.  Space helmets are made from polywholebunchofsyllables.  Plastic; just say plastic.
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Offline Kiwi

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #98 on: March 07, 2012, 10:31:45 PM »
Argghh!!  You guys have just reminded me of the embarrassment I felt back in the 1970s on learning that I had made a slight error in telling customers in my photography shop that red-eye was caused by the flashlight bouncing around inside our our eyes "which are full of blood."

Of course, I had got my anatomical information from impeccable sources:  Hammer horror films.  Most likely vampire movies starring Peter Cushing.   :D
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #99 on: March 08, 2012, 09:03:20 AM »
Space helmets are made from polywholebunchofsyllables.  Plastic; just say plastic.
Yeah, but do you really want the guy who makes those pressure helmets to say "polycarbonate, polyethylene, what the hell, they're all plastics and the polyethylene is cheaper..."

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #100 on: March 08, 2012, 11:40:58 AM »


I couldn't resist.  We were off-topic enough already.   :D
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Offline Nowhere Man

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #101 on: March 08, 2012, 06:53:54 PM »
Just say it's made from polysyllabic plastic...

Fred
Hey, you!  "It's" with an apostrophe means "it is" or "it has."  "Its" without an apostrophe means "belongs to it."

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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #102 on: March 08, 2012, 08:51:23 PM »
Just say it's made from polysyllabic plastic...

+1
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Offline profmunkin

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #103 on: March 09, 2012, 11:06:02 AM »
Two astronauts supposedly accomplish arguably the greatest feat in human history that may not ever be duplicated, landing on the moon. They have the option of showing their faces in a photograph, but Buzz elects to be obscured behind a reflective gold visor, First Man on the Moon Armstrong never poses for a photo.
Some people may not find this strange, some people may find this odd.

Offline frenat

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Re: Photos from Apollo 11 film footage
« Reply #104 on: March 09, 2012, 11:13:55 AM »
Two astronauts supposedly accomplish arguably the greatest feat in human history that may not ever be duplicated, landing on the moon. They have the option of showing their faces in a photograph, but Buzz elects to be obscured behind a reflective gold visor, First Man on the Moon Armstrong never poses for a photo.
Some people may not find this strange, some people may find this odd.

Some people may be assigning more meaning to it than they should.
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