Author Topic: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?  (Read 556367 times)

Offline alexsanchez

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #300 on: January 28, 2013, 10:06:47 PM »
Well, I guess, if NASA said so.

Straw man.  Why can't you speak in any detail about LM testing?  Why do you keep resorting to calling everyone gullible sheep?

You're saying the LM wasn't appropriately tested.  We want to know from you to what extent you are aware the LM was tested.  We also want to know from you what you believe would have constituted a valid LM test, why your test program would be the proper one, and what evidence you can give that the aerospace industry would agree with your reasons.

Put up or shut up.
LM testing doesn't prove they landed on the moon, let alone took off from the moon.  I never said the technology wasn't there to go to the moon.  Putting men on the moon and getting them back is another thing.

Offline raven

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #301 on: January 28, 2013, 10:06:55 PM »
What is the obvious part?  That it worked?  Only if you take NASA's word for it.  Is there any video of it being tested in flight?  There's video of the LM research vehicle crashing and Armstrong ejecting.

The LLTV was a flying flight simulator, used to help train the pilots in the kind of flight that the LM would undergo.
That being said, it actually had a harder job in certain respects. For one, the LM would never have to deal with wind gusts and other atmospheric effects that would disturb its stability.
There is video of it landing and taking off safely though, all in a single take.
The LM however could not be test flown on Earth. Components could and were tested, (or are you claiming all of Grumman and the LM subcontractors are lying?) but the LM had far too little thrust to hover, let alone ascend in Earth gravity. Moreover, the nozzle, the cooling system and likely a whole bunch of other stuff. was designed for use in a vacuum, so it wouldn't be a very good test to try test flying it on Earth, even if it were possible.

Offline Laurel

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #302 on: January 28, 2013, 10:10:23 PM »
LM testing doesn't prove they landed on the moon, let alone took off from the moon.  I never said the technology wasn't there to go to the moon.  Putting men on the moon and getting them back is another thing.
You said the LM was "untested." That was a blatant error. It makes me wonder what else you didn't research.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #303 on: January 28, 2013, 10:12:49 PM »
LM testing doesn't prove they landed on the moon, let alone took off from the moon.

You brought up LM testing.  If you'd rather not talk about it, then concede that you were in error.  If you wish to continue talking about it, answer my questions.

Quote
I never said the technology wasn't there to go to the moon.

You insinuated that was the reason the LM was "untested."  The suggestion was that if it had been a real spacecraft, it would have been tested differently that the record shows.  You are unable to give a description of the "proper" way to test a lunar module, hence we reject your suggestion that the LM was not real.

Will you explicitly concede that the LM was a real spacecraft?

Quote
Putting men on the moon and getting them back is another thing.

Asked and answered repeatedly.  Your characterization of the LM ascent and rendezvous is wrong.  Your expectations are based on layman's error.  You have been told what's wrong with your claims.  Repeating them again is a sign of religious faith, not reason.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline alexsanchez

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #304 on: January 28, 2013, 10:17:38 PM »
NASA can give you all sorts of details about Apollo that I doubt anyone would think of if the whole thing was a hoax. For example, NASA can tell you the estimated weight of the ice that formed on the sides of the Saturn V rocket prior to launch. Now, who would have even thought to include that kind of detail in press kits about a fake moon rocket?

NASA can answer any question that we might ask them about Apollo. Hoax believers can only offer you speculation. That is why I asked Alex where the astronauts were on July 20, 1969. If he can't answer that then he hasn't given an alternative to NASA's version of events.
Who said the moon rocket was fake?  Not me.  NASA had lots of experience with rockets icing up.  What's so remarkable about them being able to estimate how much ice there would be?

Offline Laurel

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #305 on: January 28, 2013, 10:18:54 PM »
If they had a real Moon rocket, why not use it to, I don't know, fly to the Moon?
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #306 on: January 28, 2013, 10:22:51 PM »
Who said the moon rocket was fake?  Not me.

Straw man.  The question was why there are so many verifiable details about a project that you say was fake.  Answer that one, not the one you wish she had asked.
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Offline nomuse

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #307 on: January 28, 2013, 10:27:51 PM »

The parts in 2001: ASO that looks like they are in zero gravity (they're close enough.)

Err, no.

There are three sequences which take place in zero G; the Pan Am flight, Bowman's re-entry to the Discovery, and the lobotomy of HAL.

Within the Pan Am flight, the following is shown; a man strapped in his seat, asleep, with one arm moving as if weightless.  Two pilots, also strapped in their seats, moving normally.  A stewardess in (purportedly) velcro shoes, walking in an unusual fashion but otherwise showing no signs of lower gravity.  A trick shot of the same actress moving VERY carefully in a rotating set.  And two FX shots of a pen, neither of which is the least convincing in describing a free trajectory or motion about its own center of gravity.

In both other sequences, the actor is suspended from a single-point flying rig; in the famous entry sequence, the camera is looking straight up and Bowman is being lowered towards it.  His motions -- such as the complete lack of any movement about any other than a single axis -- reveals the trick.  The lobotomy sequence breaks this up by shooting from several different directions, but the actor never propels himself or somersaults or does any of the other motions other astronauts typically perform in zero G.  He stays in a single limited orientation throughout the sequence.

I believe I might suggest you watch the film before making further commentary on it.

The scenes shot on the moon were intentionally made to look bad.

So lemme get this straight; your best evidence that the Apollo surface video would be easy to fake is that there is a contemporary movie that does a bad job of faking it?

Are you even listening to yourself here?


  Kubrick would have been told to do an intentionally bad job showing them walking on the moon in 1968, a time when he would have been working for NASA.  The moon scenes are the only scenes in the movie that look fake.  The lack of continuity is obvious and sticks out like a sore thumb.  Kubrick knew walking on the moon wouldn't have looked like that.

You got one thing right; Kubrick knew better, and made choices for drama and story-telling.

You are wrong otherwise.  Every space scene is flawed.  The lack of any real zero-G and the failure of most of the gags that were used.  The presence of stars (and absence of a real starscape).  The line-up of the planets, astronomically implausible and wrongly proportioned.  The various circular promenades; from the stumbling Russians up on the curve of the space station, to the lack of any shot where both astronauts are moving freely around the Discovery ring at the same time.

And you are still requiring that Kubrick...that Stanley Kubrick, the man whose picture appears in the definition for "auteur film-maker"...would chose to produce intentionally poor shots that sabotaged the quality of his most ambitious film.

For what?  For the loan of a couple lenses?  (Good lenses, but still...!)

But I'm unwilling to accept your premise here.  2001 is a great film, and the choices are sound for that film.  He didn't arbitrarily insert a jaguar to the detriment of the Dawn of Man sequence because he was getting a pay-off from the fledgling Apple Corporation (looking forward a few decades to their cat-themed operating systems).  And he didn't chose claustrophobic shots filled with glare and stately motion because he was requested to do so as a contrast to the radically different kinds of shots of Apollo EVAs.

Sheesh.  As if you wanted a man who told stories and was famed for lighting and the framing of image and the creative use of FILM to direct long unbroken video from a single camera moving restlessly about the same landscape for hour after hour.

The first hoaxie that mentions Doug Trumbell instead will have my undying admiration.  Still a poor match, but....!

Offline raven

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #308 on: January 28, 2013, 10:32:50 PM »
If they had a real Moon rocket, why not use it to, I don't know, fly to the Moon?
And if they had a real LM, why not land on it? After all, if Grumman and subcontractors weren't in on the hoax, they would do their very best to make a working LM. Having them be in on it is such an infeasible containment problem, that even many conspiracy theorists say they weren't.
 Even if Apollo was fake, you'd still need a working CSM to at least attempt to film the extended free-fall seen in Apollo video and 16mm film, not to mention to conduct Skylab.
In short, you need everything working, plus all the extra hardware, like sample return vehicles and reflector planters, to fake it.
So, as asked in this sketch, why not just go?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:36:11 PM by raven »

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #309 on: January 28, 2013, 10:41:10 PM »
NASA can give you all sorts of details about Apollo that I doubt anyone would think of if the whole thing was a hoax. For example, NASA can tell you the estimated weight of the ice that formed on the sides of the Saturn V rocket prior to launch. Now, who would have even thought to include that kind of detail in press kits about a fake moon rocket?

NASA can answer any question that we might ask them about Apollo. Hoax believers can only offer you speculation. That is why I asked Alex where the astronauts were on July 20, 1969. If he can't answer that then he hasn't given an alternative to NASA's version of events.
Who said the moon rocket was fake?  Not me.  NASA had lots of experience with rockets icing up.  What's so remarkable about them being able to estimate how much ice there would be?

That was just one example of how NASA has a lot a details about things that people wouldn't think of if the moon landings were faked.
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Offline nomuse

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #310 on: January 28, 2013, 10:44:07 PM »
Perhaps he believes that the functional nature of a spacecraft can be divorced from the mission requirements.  That like a car, knowing it can drive is not the same as knowing it can drive on a particular road. 

Which just moves the problem.  Since Grumman and MIT and what-not knew the mission requirements and were building an LM with functional navigational equipment, they would be presumed to know if the thing could actually make an orbital rendezvous.

Offline alexsanchez

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #311 on: January 28, 2013, 10:49:31 PM »

The parts in 2001: ASO that looks like they are in zero gravity (they're close enough.)

Err, no.

There are three sequences which take place in zero G; the Pan Am flight, Bowman's re-entry to the Discovery, and the lobotomy of HAL.

Within the Pan Am flight, the following is shown; a man strapped in his seat, asleep, with one arm moving as if weightless.  Two pilots, also strapped in their seats, moving normally.  A stewardess in (purportedly) velcro shoes, walking in an unusual fashion but otherwise showing no signs of lower gravity.  A trick shot of the same actress moving VERY carefully in a rotating set.  And two FX shots of a pen, neither of which is the least convincing in describing a free trajectory or motion about its own center of gravity.

In both other sequences, the actor is suspended from a single-point flying rig; in the famous entry sequence, the camera is looking straight up and Bowman is being lowered towards it.  His motions -- such as the complete lack of any movement about any other than a single axis -- reveals the trick.  The lobotomy sequence breaks this up by shooting from several different directions, but the actor never propels himself or somersaults or does any of the other motions other astronauts typically perform in zero G.  He stays in a single limited orientation throughout the sequence.

I believe I might suggest you watch the film before making further commentary on it.

The scenes shot on the moon were intentionally made to look bad.

So lemme get this straight; your best evidence that the Apollo surface video would be easy to fake is that there is a contemporary movie that does a bad job of faking it?

Are you even listening to yourself here?


  Kubrick would have been told to do an intentionally bad job showing them walking on the moon in 1968, a time when he would have been working for NASA.  The moon scenes are the only scenes in the movie that look fake.  The lack of continuity is obvious and sticks out like a sore thumb.  Kubrick knew walking on the moon wouldn't have looked like that.

You got one thing right; Kubrick knew better, and made choices for drama and story-telling.

You are wrong otherwise.  Every space scene is flawed.  The lack of any real zero-G and the failure of most of the gags that were used.  The presence of stars (and absence of a real starscape).  The line-up of the planets, astronomically implausible and wrongly proportioned.  The various circular promenades; from the stumbling Russians up on the curve of the space station, to the lack of any shot where both astronauts are moving freely around the Discovery ring at the same time.

And you are still requiring that Kubrick...that Stanley Kubrick, the man whose picture appears in the definition for "auteur film-maker"...would chose to produce intentionally poor shots that sabotaged the quality of his most ambitious film.

For what?  For the loan of a couple lenses?  (Good lenses, but still...!)

But I'm unwilling to accept your premise here.  2001 is a great film, and the choices are sound for that film.  He didn't arbitrarily insert a jaguar to the detriment of the Dawn of Man sequence because he was getting a pay-off from the fledgling Apple Corporation (looking forward a few decades to their cat-themed operating systems).  And he didn't chose claustrophobic shots filled with glare and stately motion because he was requested to do so as a contrast to the radically different kinds of shots of Apollo EVAs.

Sheesh.  As if you wanted a man who told stories and was famed for lighting and the framing of image and the creative use of FILM to direct long unbroken video from a single camera moving restlessly about the same landscape for hour after hour.

The first hoaxie that mentions Doug Trumbell instead will have my undying admiration.  Still a poor match, but....!
2001 ASO = Front Screen Projection.  And let's not forget about Doug Trumbell?

Offline Echnaton

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #312 on: January 28, 2013, 10:55:01 PM »
LM testing doesn't prove they landed on the moon, let alone took off from the moon.  I never said the technology wasn't there to go to the moon. 

There you go again.  Make a claim then pull it right back when challenged.

Quote
Putting men on the moon and getting them back is another thing.
So what specifically was the showstopper?  What do you think made it impossible to go to the moon? And what do you have to support the assertion?  Until you answer this question you are just another in a long line of common deniers that we get here.  Is that what you want the alexsanchez online legacy to be?
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Offline frenat

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #313 on: January 28, 2013, 11:00:47 PM »

So how much do you really know about movies?  Give me $30 billion and I'll fake it.  Watch 2001: A Space Odyssey

Which part?

Do you mean the part where the Earth is lit from the wrong side, is too large, and is in the wrong place in the sky?

Do you mean the part where the lunar terrain is craggy and sharp and quite unlike the Moon we know?

Do you mean the part where stars are perfectly visible in scenes featuring spacecraft with white (or light-colored) hulls (even though said stars form into no recognizable constellations and indeed resemble no part of the night sky).

Do you mean the part where men on a craft traveling across the surface of the Moon move as if in 1G, or the part where men on the surface of the Moon aren't shown in any way being under lunar gravity (aka, the shots are cropped so you often can't even see their lower bodies), or perhaps the part where a pen in zero-G rotates around something other than its own COG?

Perhaps you mean the part where a spacecraft clearly reveals the presence of an atmosphere (in Kubrick's defense, the shot does take place in the depths of an artificial structure that probably does have non-zero contamination by exhausts and similar).
The parts in 2001: ASO that looks like they are in zero gravity (they're close enough.)  The scenes shot on the moon were intentionally made to look bad.  Kubrick would have been told to do an intentionally bad job showing them walking on the moon in 1968, a time when he would have been working for NASA.  The moon scenes are the only scenes in the movie that look fake.  The lack of continuity is obvious and sticks out like a sore thumb.  Kubrick knew walking on the moon wouldn't have looked like that.

I dare you to prove ANY of that.
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Offline raven

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Re: why was the usa the only one to go to the moon?
« Reply #314 on: January 28, 2013, 11:01:21 PM »
Front Screen Projection would be of no use for faking Apollo.
For one, the cameras have to be kept pretty still or the shadows of the foreground objects will be seen on the screen, yet Apollo did 360 degree pans. Moreover, these foreground objects have to be kept pretty pretty dark, or the projection will be visible on them. Notice how in 2001 the apes are all quite darkly furred.
Yet Apollo astronauts wore white suits with gold mirror visors, the exact opposite of dark!