Author Topic: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?  (Read 372782 times)

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #165 on: March 19, 2013, 11:04:57 AM »

We'll look at the witness marks should we? It looks to me as though the wire mesh does not touch the ground at all except for maybe between the chevrons, of the two of us I certainly represented the tyres in a way that is supported by the evidence.



And it is pretty clear from your photo that the tires dug in and got a very good grip on the lunar regolith; hardly comparable to driving on ice.

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Here's a photo of The Apollo 17 LRV being fitted to Jack Schmitt and Eugene Cernan before it is stowed on the LM seen in the background. Notice that there are supports under the frame so it will hold their weight in Earth gravity.




Yes those supports are needed under the frame because it is such a delicate little flower that it can't even "hold their weight", yet on the moon those same masses can literally jump onto the rovers and then slam them into bumps all they want without any concerns.




Were they delicate, or sturdy? Apparently both.

So delicate they can't be sat on, yet sturdy enough that they can be driven on bumpy uneven surfaces with confidence. The "with confidence" part is very important, on the moon any accident could result in death so they had to be confident that these vehicles, that could not even be sat on, would not fail over bumpy terrain.

Normally the opposite is true, you might be able to sit on and even ride a kids bike on a smooth surface for example, yet not ride it over a bumpy surface.

Whatever ye do don't question this paradigm shift lest ye be called a conspiracy nutter.
Apples and oranges. Or, more appropriately, apples and grapes.

No, the LRV cannot support a total of 800 lbs [363 kg] of astronauts and equipment in Earth gravity.

Yes, it can easily support a 67 lb [30 kg] astronaut jumping onto the seat in lunar gravity. Driven with confidence, yes.  It did have a top speed of 20 kph, but according to the transcripts the more usual speed was 8 to 10 kph, not much faster than a brisk walk on Earth.  They weren't slamming the thing around like a Baja Buggy - they were well aware of the danger.

"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Trebor

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #166 on: March 19, 2013, 11:40:29 AM »
We'll look at the witness marks should we? It looks to me as though the wire mesh does not touch the ground at all except for maybe between the chevrons, of the two of us I certainly represented the tyres in a way that is supported by the evidence.

From the image source :
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Tyre tracks imprinted in the Sahara desert sands - resemblance to lunar rover tracks

So your 'evidence' is tracks not made in lunar regolith; and that were not made by the lunar rover.
Good job.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #167 on: March 19, 2013, 12:11:41 PM »
So your 'evidence' is tracks not made in lunar regolith; and that were not made by the lunar rover.
Good job.


PMSL

Typical "research" done by a typical hoax believer. Nice work Anywho...you must feel proud.  ::)

A slight zoom in the picture and you can see loads of footprints made by ordinary boots.


http://www.canstockphoto.com/mark-of-the-moon-rover-0672620.html

What a howler!  ;D ;D

No doubt this image will start cropping up on HB websites as proof of the "hoax".  I can see the headlines now..."Whistle-blowers leave bootprints in faked Lunar image as proof of the hoax" ;D ;D ;D
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline gillianren

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #168 on: March 19, 2013, 01:39:51 PM »
Hey, at least you guys got answered at all.  Apparently, confessing my own engineering ignorance made me not worth answering.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Tedward

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #169 on: March 19, 2013, 01:45:30 PM »
Hey, at least you guys got answered at all.  Apparently, confessing my own engineering ignorance made me not worth answering.

Same here. I think he/she was fishing for a responder.

Problem is even in my non engineer/scientist doings in the world, I can see the problem with the argument. That does not bode well to take it further.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #170 on: March 19, 2013, 02:17:11 PM »
To you guys 1/6g is only a small detail that has to be overcome because you see, and believe, the rovers hooning around with no traction problems and not even looking like rolling is a possibility, so driving in 1/6 is all just fun with one of you even mentioning the "dukes of hazard" yeehaa.

No, it's a small detail because I've computed the roll stability factors for the lunar rover and I'm satisfied it was safe to operate as we saw it operate.

All I see from you is a lot of childish handwaving.  Compute the roll moments and rates and critical roll angle, showing your work, and then we'll talk.  Otherwise I don't see your argument as anything more than desperate question-begging.

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...and that is being generous because on the moon it is loose dirt).

No, it isn't loose dirt.  Study chemical cementation and physical matrixing, then revisit your estaimate.  Your qualitative assumption fails, therefore the quantities you estimated based on that also fail.

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http://www.saltflats.com/traction.html

Interesting link.  Look at my nick and guess where I race.  You really don't know what you're talking about.  Oddly enough we also get chemical cementation out at Bonneville.  That's why I have to hose off my street car after I drive out to the speedway.

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..when one astronaut is on board approx 3/4 of the weight is on one side of the vehicle, so yes, it is a very unbalanced vehicle especially for the moon where, once again, it is many times easier to roll a vehicle than on earth.

Compute the roll moment/rate or no dice.  I'm an engineer.  Show me your numbers or go home.

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Traction on a loose surface on the moon will be similar to ice on earth

Disagree.

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It is many times easier to roll a vehicle on the moon than the earth

Compute the roll moment/rate for a vehicle on Earth and the same vehicle, identically loaded, on the Moon.  Show me the difference between the two numbers; don't just tell me your guesses for how they relate.

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There are no groomed roads on the moon and the driving surface was at times very uneven...

I agree there are no groomed roads.  I agree that the surface was "uneven," but you have failed to quantify the surface variation (or even intimate that you know how such factors are commonly described).  You seem to expect that agreement here is a stipulation that the LRV was improbable.  I do not so stipulate:  if you claim the LRV cannot have handled the "uneven" terrain, then you have the burden of proof.  Waving your hands is not proof.

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A balanced vehicle has, by definition, the weight relatively well balanced, ergo, a vehicle with 3/4 the weight on one side is unbalanced.

I do not agree with this definition of balanced vehicle.  I do not agree with the conclusion you've drawn.  The science of vehicle stability is well-established and employs several models to help engineers reason about vehicle designs.  Your ignorance of them and reluctance to employ any of them is not a substitute for proper knowledge.  Your willingness to draw a conclusion without investigating proper reasoning suggests you are not interested in whether your claim is true.

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On the moon where it is many times easier to roll a vehicle having a balanced vehicle would be significantly more important than on earth.

This is a complex question fallacy because you have included a premise in the proposition to which I do not agree.  I agree that any vehicle must be appropriately engineered for its purpose.  Proper engineering for a wheeled vehicle requires a proper quantification of stability relative to its intended operating environment.  You have argued that the LRV is not engineered for its purpose.  You have failed to demonstrate a working understanding of the environment and a working knowledge of engineering principles.  You have not even attempted to make an engineering argument.  While you allude to engineering factors, you cannot discuss them with any competency.

How would "common sense" suggest we respond to a proponent who simply demands we believe him without being able to give a proper reason?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #171 on: March 19, 2013, 03:14:32 PM »
Hey, at least you guys got answered at all.  Apparently, confessing my own engineering ignorance made me not worth answering.
In my observation, it is asking specifly for information from the HB that will get any of us ignored.  While those who mix rebuttals and new information will grab their attention, whether or not they ask questions.  Because the HBs are primarily arguing an emotional case, they get no real charge from being queried about thing they don't know.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline gillianren

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #172 on: March 19, 2013, 03:47:15 PM »
In my observation, it is asking specifly for information from the HB that will get any of us ignored.  While those who mix rebuttals and new information will grab their attention, whether or not they ask questions.  Because the HBs are primarily arguing an emotional case, they get no real charge from being queried about thing they don't know.

Yes, but my most recent question has been "what research have you done?"  Surely he knows the answer to that!
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Daggerstab

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #173 on: March 19, 2013, 04:12:58 PM »
Wasn't this the same Sahara photo that tripped up Jack White & James Fetzer on the Education Forum? :D It sure looks familiar.

Perhaps the reason is that it's one of the top image results in Google for "lunar rover tracks", and the first that looks like a close-up. Kudos to the photographer for the joke. :)

Offline nomuse

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #174 on: March 19, 2013, 04:20:11 PM »
I remember seeing the picture before -- don't remember where -- and am ashamed at almost falling for it again.


Offline raven

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #175 on: March 19, 2013, 04:32:25 PM »
I remember someone on youtube posting a still that showed two astronauts that obviously wasn't from the television camera or the DAC, claiming it was a Hasselblad shot. Something about it looked familiar however and then I remembered where I'd seen it. It was from the IMAX film, Magnificent Desolation: Walking on the Moon 3D.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #176 on: March 19, 2013, 05:18:44 PM »
Did the person who cited the Magnificent Desolation frame claim that it was faked? If so, that's actually a pretty good argument that even today Hollywood can't fake Apollo lunar pictures.

Offline raven

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #177 on: March 19, 2013, 05:27:13 PM »
Did the person who cited the Magnificent Desolation frame claim that it was faked? If so, that's actually a pretty good argument that even today Hollywood can't fake Apollo lunar pictures.
They claimed it was from Apollo, so by default they claimed it was fake, but they said knew it was fake because it showed both astronauts, not because of technical failures.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 05:31:33 PM by raven »

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #178 on: March 19, 2013, 07:30:09 PM »
Did the person who cited the Magnificent Desolation frame claim that it was faked? If so, that's actually a pretty good argument that even today Hollywood can't fake Apollo lunar pictures.
They claimed it was from Apollo, so by default they claimed it was fake, but they said knew it was fake because it showed both astronauts, not because of technical failures.

Yanno, it's probably just as well that Pete and Al lost their timer.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline raven

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Re: Were the Lunar Rovers faked?
« Reply #179 on: March 19, 2013, 07:52:58 PM »
They claimed it was from Apollo, so by default they claimed it was fake, but they said knew it was fake because it showed both astronauts, not because of technical failures.

Yanno, it's probably just as well that Pete and Al lost their timer.
No doubt. ;D