Author Topic: The psychology of conspiracy theorists  (Read 57894 times)

Offline Andromeda

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2013, 03:19:14 PM »
No, I said none of us are qualified to provide help in this setting. 

Actually, you said "The only thing that will help is mental health care, which we are none of us qualified to provide".  I thought you meant that no-one here was qualified to provide any mental health care at all, I didn't realise you meant specifically to provide it here (and I agree with you there, it would be very unethical).
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline RAF

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2013, 04:37:12 PM »
That's quite an assumption...snip... there may well be qualified therapists among us.

How is this not an assumption on your part?

I don't understand what you mean.

You "chastised" Gillianren for making an assumption, then immediately make an assumption yourself...no, not the same assumption, but still...???

Offline Andromeda

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2013, 04:40:32 PM »
That's quite an assumption...snip... there may well be qualified therapists among us.

How is this not an assumption on your part?

I don't understand what you mean.

You "chastised" Gillianren for making an assumption, then immediately make an assumption yourself...no, not the same assumption, but still...???

I didn't make an assumption.  I explained that I didn't make an assumption in the post you have quoted here, but for some reason you didn't include that bit.

Again, Gillian said (in my understanding at the time) that there were no qualified therapists here.  I said there might be.  That's not an assumption.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline RAF

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2013, 04:45:04 PM »
And I really hate the "just sayin'", it sounds very snarky.

Wasn't my intention...it's just a phrase I occasionally use is all.

Trust me, if I decide to get "snarky" with you, there will be absolutely no doubt about it.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2013, 04:46:59 PM »
You "chastised" Gillianren for making an assumption, then immediately make an assumption yourself...no, not the same assumption, but still...???

RAF, how exactly is 'there may be some qualified therapists here' an assumption? 'There are none' is an assumption. 'There are some' would be an assumption. 'There may be some' is a statement that makes no assumptions either way. It's no more an assumption than me saying there may be some Welsh people here, or there may be some people who enjoy a bit of Wagner, or that you may have blond hair. In the absence of any evidence either way it's a perfectly valid statement until proved one way or the other.
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Offline RAF

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 04:59:12 PM »
how exactly is 'there may be some qualified therapists here' an assumption?

I don't know...sure sounds like an assumption to me...

If I'm in error, I'm sure you and Andromeda will delight in showing me wrong...

...but I won't be here to see it...

Offline Andromeda

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2013, 05:00:04 PM »
RAF, why are you suddenly being like this to me?  What have I ever done to you that you would say something so mean like that?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 05:06:15 PM by Andromeda »
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2013, 05:05:29 PM »
how exactly is 'there may be some qualified therapists here' an assumption?

I don't know...sure sounds like an assumption to me...

If I'm in error, I'm sure you and Andromeda will delight in showing me wrong...

...but I won't be here to see it...

What's the snark for, RAF? I take no delight from this interaction at all.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline gillianren

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2013, 07:20:42 PM »
There may well be some.  However, I'm pretty sure everyone who is participating in this conversation has, at one time or another, made it quite clear that they are not a qualified therapist.
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2013, 09:46:44 PM »
No disrespect intended, but I fail to see why expressing an opinion about the state of someone's mental health (based on their observed on-line or public behaviour) is a problem, and I don't see how it is any different from expressing an opinion about anything else, dogs, trees, history, science and even Martha Stewart's cooking. However, if I claim to be a psychologist, and I claimto be making a clinical diagnosis, THEN it becomes a problem.

I say

"Anyone who still believes that the Lunar landings were faked, despite being presented with comprehensive and overwhelming evidence that they in fact did take place, and despite also being presented with comprehensive and overwhelming evidence that it would have been impossible to fake given the state of video technology at the time, has a serious defect in their wiring."

That was merely stating an opinion; nothing more. Why should it be considered inappropriate merely because I question his mental state?

Take a look at Bart Sibrel, who stalked Buzz Aldrin, accusing him of dishonesty and calling him a liar; provoking Aldrin until he reacted with physical violence. At some later date, Sibrel was arrested for jumping up and down on the bonnet of a car because its driver hadn't, in his view, pulled out of a parking space quickly enough.

IMO Sibrel definitely has something untoward going on with his wiring. His behaviour, surely, is not that of a normal person. What is wrong with staying this?
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline gillianren

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2013, 11:14:31 PM »
For one thing, I keep having to deal with the appalling ignorance of a large number of people, because they all think like that--and that, if I'm mentally ill, than I'm also mentally defective.  (Which, arguably, I technically am.  But you know what I mean.)  There are in fact several mental illnesses strongly correlated with high intelligence and/or creativity, but that doesn't stop people from making unwarranted assumptions about me.  I mean, you don't have to think I'm a genius or anything, but I think we can all agree that I'm not stupid.

For another, fairly or not, concerns about someone's mental health can put a serious damper on things like their hiring prospects, whether they're true or not.  This is, in fact, one of the reasons I'm so outspoken about my own mental illness.  It's important to me that the average person knows that, yes, you can be mentally ill and not the way "everyone knows mentally ill people are."

And, for a third, mentally ill people aren't the way a lot of people assume mentally ill people are.  Yes, some of them act the way certain CTs do, but the majority of them don't.  Further, the majority of CTs don't act in a way comparable to any mental illness.  (Except that I'm given to understand that extreme conspiracism is actually going to be listed as a disorder unto itself in the DSM-V.  But think about it--would they have to do that if it fit a previous diagnosis?)  I have known one or two and known of one or two others who do seem, to my untrained perspective, to fit the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia.  However, because I am not an expert, you should take even my above-layman's perspective with a grain of salt.

And finally, it isn't like expressing an opinion of anything other than medical issues.  Because mental illness is a medical issue.
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"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Online Allan F

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2013, 12:31:26 AM »
With all due respect, gillianren, I think you underestimate a lot of people. Clearly, there are degrees and variations in the aspect of mental health, and I think most people understand it. I don't know what your exact medical diagnosis is, and I'm not going to ask. That is your private business, and none of mine. Clearly, you are coherent, informed and intelligent. This does not, in my laymans view, mean much when assessing a person's mental health. I know people through my sport, who are diagnosed with mental issues, which are coherent and intelligent, and I know people who are regarded as healthy, who certainly aren't.

That aside - I can't for the life of me understand the conspiracists, who make a strange claim, which does defy physics, chemistry, biology or any other of a number of sciences. When shown where they are wrong, they just persist in their strange idea. That must mean something, maybe just an inflated sense of pride, an inability to admit when they are wrong, or maybe a sign of a disturbed mind.

Whatever the idea, the hoax believers must have (in my laymans opinion) a larger segment of people with problems, than the population as a whole.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2013, 01:56:20 AM »
To be perfectly honest, I agree with your last point.  I do think conspiracism is more common in certain mental illnesses than in the general population.  However, that still does not to me mean that it's a large percentage.  I might go so high as fifteen or twenty percent, which is admittedly quite high relative to the general population but extremely low compared to the number of people I've seen accused of mental illness.  And, yes, I have seen people accused of mental illness simply for espousing Kennedy assassination theories.  If that's all it takes, the numbers of mentally ill people are much, much higher than imagined.

That's the thing.  I am not pulling my irritation out of thin air, here.  People in a marginalized group are more sensitive to the prejudices that group suffers.  Sometimes, that makes them oversensitive.  Heck, given the irrational nature of mental illness, I'll concede that I'm probably oversensitive, even though paranoia isn't a symptom of my particular condition.  However, I have seen biochemically normal people make wild, rash assumptions about what "those people" are like, and, when it's pointed out that I (and quite a few of my friends) would therefore fit those assumptions, I have been told that it's "obvious" that they don't mean me.
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"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Andromeda

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2013, 02:28:47 AM »
However, I have seen biochemically normal people make wild, rash assumptions about what "those people" are like, and, when it's pointed out that I (and quite a few of my friends) would therefore fit those assumptions, I have been told that it's "obvious" that they don't mean me.

You could take out "biochemically normal" and what you have said could apply to any oppressed group.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Online Allan F

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Re: The psychology of conspiracy theorists
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2013, 04:46:43 AM »
You should not take the opinion of an uninformed group, and transfer it's bias to another, perhaps more informed group. I regard myself as above average informed, and I don't have that bias. Of course I accept your opinion as valid for the population as a whole.

Another point, why the conspiracist act like they do, is perhaps the wish to belong to a group, the wish to get attention. By having these beliefs, they feel less alone, can attract attention from a wide range of people, from their own ranks, where they can pat themselves on the shoulders in a wide circle, to the people who try to convince them otherwise. They get the attention by being contrarian, like children in the "no"-age.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.