Author Topic: Proof that at least mathematicians welcome nonorthodoxy from the outside  (Read 15635 times)

Offline ka9q

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One of the claims we often hear from the cranks is that the scientific community is a tight-knit old-boy's club that vigorously defends an orthodox "party line" against brilliant original-thinking outsiders like themselves.

As proof this isn't true at least for mathematicians, here's a story about an unknown mathematician who came out of nowhere to prove one of the long-standing unsolved conjectures in number theory. Far from being shunned, his work passed peer review in record time and now everybody in the field wants him to come and talk about his work:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/05/twin-primes/all/
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 03:28:05 AM by ka9q »

Offline DataCable

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One of the claims we often hear from the cranks is that the scientific community is a tight-knit old-boy's club that vigorously defends an orthodox "party line" against brilliant original-thinking outsiders like themselves.
2 words in rebuttal:  Dark Energy
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Offline ka9q

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Or one name (in physics): Albert Einstein. The irony is that he is now the target of an entire subgenre of physics crackpots, relativity deniers.


Offline Inanimate Carbon Rod

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Or one name (in physics): Albert Einstein. The irony is that he is now the target of an entire subgenre of physics crackpots, relativity deniers.

What? I've never heard of that one before. Just when I think I can't be more appalled by the stupidity of human behaviour....
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Offline Echnaton

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There was at least one thread on the old BABB from relativity deniers.  They seemed to be mostly religious fundamentalist who would not quite bring themselves out of the closet.  The contention they hinted at, but never stated, was that since God was omniscient, there was in fact one unique perspective that centered the universe and from which it would hold to Newtonian principles. Or something like that.  It was hard to tell because they were mostly arguing that against relativity, rather come out of their closet and actually make an assertion.  Typical deniers.   

There seemed to be a separate group from the fundamentalist that argued that relativity could be used to prove the earth was the center of the universe.  Or at least prove their take on the medieval church's view of the universe was as valid as any other.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline smartcooky

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Or one name (in physics): Albert Einstein. The irony is that he is now the target of an entire subgenre of physics crackpots, relativity deniers.

What? I've never heard of that one before. Just when I think I can't be more appalled by the stupidity of human behaviour....

How about "no-planers" then?
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline ka9q

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They seemed to be mostly religious fundamentalist who would not quite bring themselves out of the closet.
Interesting. I haven't encountered very many relativity deniers so I never actually realized that they were closeted religious fundamentalists. They just seemed to be people who couldn't let go of their intuition and accept that empirical evidence always reigns supreme in science.

I have my own thought experiment supporting general relativity. I don't know if it's original, but I did come up with it independently.

If gravity didn't blue- or red-shift photons, then it would be possible to make a free energy machine with a Star Trek transporter that reportedly works by matter-energy-matter transformation. Just keep beaming water up to the top of a hydroelectric dam, let it fall to make electricity, and beam it back up again. If not for the slight red shift that occurs when photons climb up out of a gravity field, this would in fact produce unlimited free energy.
 

Offline Donnie B.

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I have my own thought experiment supporting general relativity. I don't know if it's original, but I did come up with it independently.

If gravity didn't blue- or red-shift photons, then it would be possible to make a free energy machine with a Star Trek transporter that reportedly works by matter-energy-matter transformation. Just keep beaming water up to the top of a hydroelectric dam, let it fall to make electricity, and beam it back up again. If not for the slight red shift that occurs when photons climb up out of a gravity field, this would in fact produce unlimited free energy.

You're assuming that the transport process does not require any energy, or not much. 

Asimov (I think) had an interesting take on that problem.  Transporting uphill would consume energy (making the transportee colder); likewise transporting from high lattitudes to the equator (higher velocity).  The other direction would heat up the transportee.  Uncorrected, this would be potentially fatal (hypo- or hyperthermia), so the transport system made the correction.  On average over the whole system (think Ma Bell) this all canceled out, but to cover short term imbalances, there was a huge mass where extra energy was available (or could be stored) by making the whole mass rise or fall a tiny bit for each correction.

Applied to your scheme, without correction it wouldn't work because pretty soon your reservoir would be frozen solid.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 03:22:00 PM by Donnie B. »

Offline Nowhere Man

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Or one name (in physics): Albert Einstein. The irony is that he is now the target of an entire subgenre of physics crackpots, relativity deniers.

What? I've never heard of that one before. Just when I think I can't be more appalled by the stupidity of human behaviour....
A certain subset seem to think that scientific relativity is somehow connected or the same as moral relativism.  Caution, lots of mind-boggling ahead...

Fred
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Offline Echnaton

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Interesting. I haven't encountered very many relativity deniers so I never actually realized that they were closeted religious fundamentalists.
 

I don't know if those old threads are still around at CQ anymore.  I probably didn't post in it so a search would be pointless.   It is just as easy to imagine that they came to fundamentalism because it was an alternative that promised them a sense of certainty that they felt education was taking away from them.   Either way, it is my observation that people that hold such odd ideas tend to show groupings around a closely guarded central misperception or deficit in thinking.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Chew

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I love the relativity denier argument that GPS doesn't correct for the effects of relativity, all the while ignoring the atomic clocks onboard are offset to correct for the effects of relativity.

Offline ka9q

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I think it's a bit of a misconception that GPS "corrects" for relativity in the sense that it would provide erroneous results if it didn't.

GPS provides closed-loop positions and times relative to ground-based references. The position reference is a collection of surveyed ground tracking stations run by the Air Force, and the time reference is the US Naval Observatory's master atomic clock (which is coordinated with the NIST clocks in Boulder and all the other clocks around the world that define UTC). The satellites are tracked by these monitor stations and their orbital elements are sent up to the satellites that broadcast them in their ephemerides to the user terminals. Similarly observations of their clocks are compared to the ground clocks and polynomial curve-fitting coefficients are also sent up for broadcast.

So if a satellite drifts out of its orbit, or if its clock drifts, this is detected by the monitoring stations and turned around in the ephemerides the satellites broadcast to its users. Even if Einstein had never discovered relativity, its effects would be just one of several "unmodeled errors" automatically corrected by the system. The users would still get their correct positions and times relative to those ground references.

The operators might be baffled as to why the spacecraft clocks, regardless of design and manufacturer, all seemed to run a little faster than they had on earth before launch. Eventually somebody would get curious enough about it to discover it and win the Nobel, but GPS wouldn't actually need it to work.

Offline ka9q

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You're assuming that the transport process does not require any energy, or not much.
In principle, it shouldn't. The teleporter supposedly works by converting matter to energy, beaming that energy to another place and converting it back to matter. By mass/energy conservation that shouldn't require any net energy, nor would it violate the second law of thermodynamics because the entropy of the universe would remain unchanged.

So if not for gravitational red/blue shift it would be possible to violate mass/energy conservation in the way that I described.

Offline Echnaton

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The energy use should come from not from mass energy conversion but from the formulation, transmission, application and forgetting of the information content associated with the matter.  Should it not?

Transporters have those big buffers not to hold the energy but the information pattern needed to correctly transform energy into matter.  The energy itself is just a commodity.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Noldi400

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I have my own thought experiment supporting general relativity. I don't know if it's original, but I did come up with it independently.

If gravity didn't blue- or red-shift photons, then it would be possible to make a free energy machine with a Star Trek transporter that reportedly works by matter-energy-matter transformation. Just keep beaming water up to the top of a hydroelectric dam, let it fall to make electricity, and beam it back up again. If not for the slight red shift that occurs when photons climb up out of a gravity field, this would in fact produce unlimited free energy.

You're assuming that the transport process does not require any energy, or not much. 

Asimov (I think) had an interesting take on that problem.  Transporting uphill would consume energy (making the transportee colder); likewise transporting from high lattitudes to the equator (higher velocity).  The other direction would heat up the transportee.  Uncorrected, this would be potentially fatal (hypo- or hyperthermia), so the transport system made the correction.  On average over the whole system (think Ma Bell) this all canceled out, but to cover short term imbalances, there was a huge mass where extra energy was available (or could be stored) by making the whole mass rise or fall a tiny bit for each correction.

Applied to your scheme, without correction it wouldn't work because pretty soon your reservoir would be frozen solid.

I don't remember Asimov writing about that. Larry Niven, though, talked about the phenomenon at length, though. IIRC, the "energy sink" was a large mass floating in the ocean and tethered loosely - it surged up, down, or sideways to absorb the excess energy. It was in a story called Flash Crowd, I think.
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